Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread.
Today’s entry covers the Epilogue of A Memory of Light, in which we have an ending.
Previous reread entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general. The index for all things specifically related to the final novel in the series, A Memory of Light, is here.
Also, for maximum coolness, the Wheel of Time reread is also now available as an ebook series, from your preferred ebook retailer!
This reread post, and all posts henceforth, contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series. If you haven’t read, continue at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Before we start, I just want to give y’all the heads up that this is not actually the last post in the Wheel of Time Reread. It was going to be, but then I decided that, all things considered, I am owed a wrap-up/summation/explosion-of-feelings post beyond the scope of the actual series, so I’mma do one, NEENER. So this post is all about the end of the Wheel of Time, and the next post is all about the end of the Wheel of Time Reread and what’s coming next for your Auntie Leigh. Because I Said So.
ETA: And also, I have to belatedly put in my traditional last-book-post review of the artwork. This time, of course, due to Darrell K. Sweet’s sad demise, the art of the final Wheel of Time novel was instead done by the highly acclaimed sci-fi artist Michael Whelan, and… well.
The thing is, it’s probably pretty clear to anyone following this blog that, loathe as I am now to speak ill of the dead, nevertheless I have never been the hugest fan of Mr. Sweet’s artwork, and it would be very disingenuous of me to pretend I suddenly loved it now, simply because he has passed away. That said, two things I have always very much appreciated about Mr. Sweet’s artwork are: his amazing background/landscape work, and his wonderful and vibrant use of color in general. I have commented to that effect most particularly on his covers for The Fires of Heaven and A Crown of Swords, because while I really had issues with the human figures on those covers, the backgrounds and overall coloring were, I thought, extraordinary.
So I was extremely gratified to see that Mr. Whelan’s cover for A Memory of Light paid homage to all the best aspects of Mr. Sweet’s art, maintaining the elaborate, dramatic, and richly colored backgrounds and overall aesthetic of the Wheel of Time covers, while simultaneously correcting what was (in my opinion) Mr. Sweet’s greatest weakness, which seemed to be a certain inability to render the human figure in a proportionate manner. Even the rather over-dramatic pose of Rand on the cover of AMOL doesn’t detract from how wonderfully symmetrical he is.
In other words, Mr. Whelan’s rendition of the AMOL cover was all of the good aspects of traditional WOT art combined with none of the bad ones, and I just freakin’ loved it. I felt that he struck a perfect balance of, on the one hand, homage to the original artist with, on the other, adherence to his own (and, I think, undeniably superior) artistic aesthetic, and the result is something to be very proud of indeed.
And, okay. Onward!
Epilogue: To See the Answer
What Happens
Rand slips in his own blood, carrying something heavy out of the cave, trying to get out before it collapses on him. He falls, and a woman he cannot see clearly tells him this is what he needs to do. He thinks she might be a gray-haired Aiel woman.
“I see the answer now,” he whispered. “I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren’t a man at all. You’re a puppet…”
Shouting.
Rand felt heavy. He plunged into unconsciousness.
Mat stands as the last of Mashadar’s mists fade away, and greets the sun cheekily. He looks at Padan Fain’s blackening, rotting corpse, and almost reaches for the dagger embedded in it.
Then he spat. “For once,” he said, “a gamble I don’t want to touch.” He turned his back on it and walked off.
He finds his hat and puts it on, and walks away, whistling. The dice have stopped rolling in his head.
Perrin walks through the camp at the base of Shayol Ghul, listening to the spirit wolves fading back into the wolf dream, bidding him goodbye. He ignores those entreating him to celebrate with them, and goes to where he sees a large group of sentries guarding a tent at the center of camp. He wonders where Rand is, and sees no colors or visions anymore. He enters the tent, and hears Damer Flinn saying he’s tried everything, but nothing changes. He finds Nynaeve and Flinn watching as Moiraine kneels next to Rand’s body, whispering that he did well. He ignores Nynaeve’s commands to rest and goes to Rand’s side.
I couldn’t feel your tugging, or see the visions, Perrin thought. You’re no longer ta’veren. I suspect neither am I. “Have you sent for the three?” Perrin asked. “Min, Elayne, Aviendha. They need to visit him a last time.”
He asks who else died. Nynaeve tells him about Egwene, and Perrin fights past his own pain to tell her it was not her fault. Nynaeve whispers that she only left the Two Rivers to protect them, and Perrin tells her she did; she protected Rand so he could do what he needed to do. They weep together for a time, and then Nynaeve runs out. Flinn tells Perrin he and Moiraine Sedai did everything they could, but no one knows how to save Rand. Perrin sees another man lying in the tent, and asks who he is.
“We found them together,” Flinn said. “Rand must have carried him out of the pit. We don’t know why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn’t matter. We can’t Heal him either. They’re dying. Both of them.”
Perrin tells Flinn to find Min, Elayne and Aviendha, and leaves the tent to find Lan and Nynaeve embracing. Lan tells him the Dark One is sealed away again, and the Windfinders have opened a gateway to Merrilor. Perrin asks if anyone has heard anything about Faile, and Lan regretfully says no. Perrin refuses to think about this, and goes to find the gateway.
Loial wanders the camp, looking for Mat and Perrin, to get their stories of the Last Battle. He reflects that it is probably the Fourth Age now, and wonders if it will mess up the calendar that Rand sealed the Bore in the middle of the day. He comes across Yukiri, Saerin and two other Aes Sedai browbeating Rodel Ituralde into taking the throne of Arad Doman, and feels sorry for the man and his inevitable fate. He looks in on Rand, but his friend looks worse. Lan is in the tent, wearing a silver circlet crown where his hadori had been, that matches the one Nynaeve is wearing.
“It’s not fair,” Nynaeve whispered. “Why should he die, when the other one gets better?”
Nynaeve asks after his search, but Lan tells him his stories can wait a few days. Loial disagrees, but doesn’t say so. Flinn asks Nynaeve why the three don’t seem worried about Rand’s decline as Loial leaves. He checks in on Aviendha briefly, who is having her feet Healed, and sees Elayne and Min outside.
It was odd, though. Min and Elayne. Shouldn’t they be at Rand’s side? […] Neither went in to hold Rand’s hand as he slipped toward death.
Loial continues to look for Mat, wondering at the hastiness of humans.
Shock spreads through the Seanchan camp as Mat saunters in, tipping his hat to people. He reaches Tuon and notes that Karede managed to survive, and bets the man probably feels guilty about it. Tuon asks where he’s been, frowning, and Mat signals for the spectacular fireworks show he’d coaxed out of Aludra to begin. Tuon informs him that she is with child. Mat is jolted, but manages to grin.
“Well, I guess I’m off the hook, now. You have an heir.”
“I have an heir,” Tuon said, “but I am the one off that hook. Now I can kill you, if I want.”
Mat felt his grin widen. “Well, we’ll have to see what we can work out. Tell me, do you ever play dice?”
Utterly exhausted, Perrin sits among the dead and weeps for Faile. He knows Davram and Deira Bashere are dead, and thinks Faile would have been queen if she’d lived. As fireworks explode above, Perrin collapses among the corpses in grief.
Disguised as a Sharan, Moghedien tries to grasp the fact that the Great Lord has fallen, but then thinks to herself that she is still alive, and that therefore she is as an empress among those who remain.
Yes… Look at the open sky, not the thunderclouds. She could turn this to her advantage. Why… in the matter of a few years, she could be ruling the world herself!
Something cold snapped around her neck.
In horror, Moghedien tries to channel, but cannot. The sul’dam behind her says that they cannot take Aes Sedai, but this one does not wear the ring. Moghedien screams at her, and is sent writhing to the ground with pain. The sul’dam says she is Shanan, but Moghedien will call her mistress. Her damane makes a gateway back to Ebou Dar, and they drag Moghedien through.
Nynaeve stepped out of the Healing tent at Shayol Ghul. The sun was all but down.
“He’s dead,” she whispered to the small crowd gathered outside.
She hears Gregorin and Darlin whispering to each other about the lack of grief Aviendha, Min and Elayne are showing, and Nynaeve thinks to herself that those three know something she does not, and resolves to beat it out of them. Lan refuses to leave her side, which she points out is hypocritical, but Lan only calmly agrees with her. She approaches Aviendha, who is talking to Sorilea and Bair, saying that with Rhuarc dead, what she saw must be able to change. Bair says she saw Aviendha’s vision as well, and thinks it is “a warning of something we must not let happen.” Nynaeve demands to know if Aviendha heard her announce Rand’s death.
“He that was wounded has woken from the dream,” Aviendha said evenly. “It is as all must do. His death was accomplished in greatness, and he will be celebrated in greatness.”
Nynaeve leaned down. “All right,” she said menacingly, embracing the Source. “Out with it. I chose you because you can’t run away from me.”
Aviendha displayed a moment of what might have been fear. It was gone in a flash. “Let us prepare his pyre.”
Perrin runs through the wolf dream as Young Bull, other wolves howling with his grief. He berates himself for abandoning Faile, even though he knows he had to go to Rand. In the place where he met Elyas, he turns back into Perrin.
“I have to let go, don’t I?” he whispered toward that sky. “Light. I don’t want to. I learned. I learned from Malden. I didn’t do it again! I did what I was supposed to, this time.”
Somewhere nearby, a bird cried in the sky. Wolves howled. Hunting.
“I learned…”
A bird’s cry.
It sounded like a falcon.
Perrin leaps up and shifts toward the sound, ending in Merrilor again, where he finds a tiny falcon pinned beneath a rock. Perrin roars and claws his way out of the wolf dream into the real world, where he stumbles through the corpses until he catches a faint whiff of flowery soap and perfume. He tosses aside a Trolloc corpse and the body of a horse, and finds Faile underneath, breathing shallowly. Perrin cries out and gathers her up.
It took him only two heartbeats to shift into the wolf dream, carry Faile to Nynaeve far to the north and shift out. Seconds later, he felt her being Healed in his arms, unwilling to let go of her even for that.
Faile, his falcon, trembled and stirred. Then she opened her eyes and smiled at him.
The other heroes are gone, but Birgitte senses that the Pattern will allow her to stay a little longer. She asks Elayne if she knows something about the Dragon, but Elayne only shrugs. She tells Elayne she knows Elayne is planning to keep the Horn, and Olver, as a national treasure and possibly weapon of Andor, and tells her that’s why she sent Olver away, to throw the Horn into the ocean where no one could find it. Elayne is outraged momentarily, but then:
Elayne exhaled softly, then turned back toward the pyre. “Insufferable woman.” She hesitated. “Thank you for saving me from having to make that decision.”
“I thought you’d feel that way.”
Birgitte tells her that she is going now. Elayne asks if she must, and Birgitte says that somewhere, a woman is about to give birth, and she will go there. She tells Elayne to be happy for her, for this means she will only be a few years younger than Gaidal in this cycle.
Elayne took her arm, eyes watering. “Love and peace, Birgitte. Thank you.”
Birgitte smiled, then closed her eyes, and let herself drift away.
Tam watches the Blasted Lands flower, and wonders if this is one final gift from his son. The funeral for Rand is small, only some two hundred people; Tam knows everyone would have wanted to come, but he prefers that this memorial be simple for Rand, who could finally rest. He lights a torch, and carries it past the other mourners; they all look the same in the flickering light. He steps up to the bier beside Thom and Moiraine, who squeezes his arm in sympathy.
Tam looked at the corpse, gazing down into his son’s face by the fire’s light. He did not wipe the tears from his eyes.
You did well. My boy… you did so well.
He lit the pyre with a reverent hand.
Min watches Tam walk away from the pyre, and steps forward with Aviendha and Elayne, watching the fire consume Rand’s body. She says that she had seen this, the three of them together here.
Elayne nodded. “So now what?”
“Now…” Aviendha said. “Now we make sure that everyone well and truly believes he is gone.”
Min nodded, feeling the pulsing throb of the bond in the back of her mind. It grew stronger each moment.
Rand al’Thor—just Rand al’Thor—wakes in a tent alone, without pain for the first time in years. He prods at where his wounds should be, and realizes he is doing so with a left hand, and that he has one. He laughs, and looks for a mirror. He sees Moridin’s face looking back at him.
Rand touched his face, feeling it. In his right eye hung a single saa, black, shaped like the dragon’s fang. It didn’t move.
He finds Laman’s sword, along with a collection of clothes and money Alivia had left for him. He thinks of the prophecy (she will help you die), and shakes his head. He dresses himself, and slips out of the tent, finding the horse left for him. He hears people singing nearby, a Borderlander dirge, and sees in the distance three women standing before a funeral pyre.
Moridin, he thought. He’s being cremated with full honors as the Dragon Reborn.
He prepares to leave, and sees someone looking at him: Cadsuane. He nods to her, and rides away.
Cadsuane watches him go, and thinks to herself that the man’s eyes had confirmed her suspicions, and there was no longer any reason to watch “this sham of a funeral.” She walks off, but finds herself joined suddenly by Yukiri, Saerin, Lyrelle, and Rubinde. Rubinde tells her they would “like direction,” and Cadsuane tells her to ask whatever poor woman they find to make Amyrlin for it.
As it hit her, Cadsuane stopped in place.
“Oh, blood and ashes, no!” Cadsuane said, spinning on them. “No, no, no.”
The women smiled in an almost predatory way.
They talk to her of responsibility and the need for a strong Amyrlin in a new Age, and Cadsuane groans and closes her eyes.
Rand is relieved when Cadsuane raises no alarm as he rides off. He finds a pipe and tabac in his pocket. He instinctively reaches for the One Power to light it, but nothing happens. He tentatively tries the True Power, but that doesn’t work either.
No way to light the tabac. He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit. And it was.
Rand smiled and turned south.
He looks back to see the three women at the pyre watching him, and wonders which or any of them will follow him. He wonders which he would pick, and realizes he could never do that; he loves all three hopelessly. He debates which way to go, perhaps to find a ship on the coast. He reflects that there is so much of the world he’s never seen, and thinks it will be a new thing, to travel without being chased or having to rule anything. He laughs and rides on, smoking his impossible pipe.
As he did so, a wind rose up around him, around the man who had been called lord, Dragon Reborn, king, killer, lover and friend.
The wind rose high and free, to soar in an open sky with no clouds. It passed over a broken landscape scattered with corpses not yet buried. A landscape covered, at the same time, with celebrations. It tickled the branches of trees that had finally begun to put forth buds.
The wind blew southward, through knotted forests, over shimmering plains and toward lands unexplored. This wind, it was not the ending. There are no endings, and never will be endings, to the turning of the Wheel of Time.
But it was an ending.
And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
(from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)
He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone.
(from The Dragon Reborn.
By Loial, son of Arent son of Halan,
the Fourth Age)
The End
of the Last Book of
The Wheel of Time
Commentary
So I went back and looked at my spoiler-free review of A Memory of Light, and saw that I had marked down the exact time I had finished the book for the first time (6:26 AM Central Time on Tuesday, December 11, 2012, in case you’re curious), because, I said, some things are worth noting, and that was definitely one of them. Also apparently worth noting is that I am remarkably consistent re: crappy timing, because here it is 5:35 AM on Tuesday, May 6, 2014, a year and a half later, and here I am still trying to write this damn thing. Not because I have nothing to say, because that’s probably an actual physical impossibility, but because I have so many things to say I have no idea where to start saying them.
But here’s a stab at it: I have criticisms of the end of the Wheel of Time. (Duh, you say.) Most of these criticisms you’re already familiar with, if you’ve been following this blog, and some of which I will be reiterating or expanding upon in this post. There are things I don’t like. There are notes I felt were out of tune. There are things I wanted to see that I didn’t get to see, plotlines I wanted to see resolved that didn’t get resolved, characters I felt didn’t get the sendoff they deserved. I have criticisms of the Wheel of Time, and I have made and will make them, because that’s what I do, as both a critic and a fan.
But none of that changes how I felt when I came to the end of A Memory of Light, and saw that ending caption saying “The End of the Last Book of The Wheel of Time.” Because the feeling I experienced then (and am experiencing now, remembering it) has nothing to do with literary quality or world relevance, and everything to do with knowing that a thing with (for myriad reasons) enormous personal significance to me specifically had just come, at long last, to a resolution—a resolution I had once thought would never occur.
It may seem hokey to say it, but it really did feel like the end of an era (or of an Age, even): the conclusion of a journey I started over fifteen years ago in an overpriced student bookstore in Austin, Texas, with absolutely no clue what it would eventually lead me to. And that is the kind of thing which merits its own reverence, entirely aside from any other considerations.
I said in my non-spoiler review that AMOL was a worthy ending to the Wheel of Time, and even with all my past and impending criticisms of it in the specific, in the aggregate I still stand by that statement. The visceral satisfaction I felt when coming to the end of this book is proof enough of that, as far as I am concerned. And that’s just something I wanted to put out up front, before I said anything else.
And now that it’s said, let’s talk turkey. Non-Rand elements first!
Loial is such a nerd. Of course he is the one to fret over whether the timing of Rand’s world-saving messes up the calendar, because he is One Of Us, and that’s a good amount of the reason I love him.
Mat, on the other hand, is a lunatic. I still heart him, always will, but cheerily wading right back into the giant pile of crazy that is the Seanchan—Tuon most definitely included—is not a course of action I can get my brain around. But then, there are people out there who voluntarily eat haggis and jump off cliffs (though, hopefully, not at the same time), so I should probably try and come to terms with the fact that some people actually prefer giant piles of crazy over, er, whatever the opposite of that is (small plateaus of sanity?) and it is therefore legit for Mat to respond to his imperial baby mama’s death threats with smiles and fireworks. Like you do.
I still persist in thinking that Mat got a little shafted compared to Perrin in AMOL, though. I mean, even in the Epilogue Perrin got twice Mat’s screentime! And for what else, but rescuing Faile. Again. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad he found her and all, but somehow that didn’t feel like something that should have been in the Epilogue, but should have happened earlier. Granted, given the timing I have no idea how that scene could have occurred earlier, but that doesn’t change the fact that it didn’t feel like it belonged here. Especially since it seemed so redundant to me, like, this thing again? Personally I think it would have been much more awesome for Perrin to have walked into Merrilor and found Faile tending the wounded or something, all “whatevs I totally rescued myself, and what took you so long?” But, you know.
In contrast, I did like Birgitte’s send-off quite a bit. I liked that her last act before going off to be reborn was to protect Elayne from herself, just like she has been all along. It’s maybe a bit of a raw deal for Olver, but he’ll hopefully look at it as an adventure rather than a burden. Let’s also hope he’s better at dumping things in the ocean than Egeanin and Domon were.
I was a little surprised that we didn’t check in with more of the Aes Sedai aside from Moiraine and Cadsuane (and Nynaeve and Elayne, of course). Obviously we couldn’t have done so with all of them, even given how much their numbers were reduced by the Last Battle, but it just seemed a tad random that it was Yukiri, Saerin, Lyrelle, and Rubinde, and no others. It’s not the worst thing ever or anything, but it did make me wonder about various other Aes Sedai and whether they survived. Leane, Lelaine, Merise, Theodrin, Romanda, Sarene, just for example? No idea what happened to them. Some of those may have died previously, of course, and I’m just not remembering, but there you are.
The Aes Sedai who got truly shafted in the Epilogue, though, was Moiraine. She got shafted in all of AMOL, really, but especially here.
I’m trying to remember if Team Jordan have said whether Cadsuane’s inclusion in the Epilogue was included in Robert Jordan’s pre-written (and therefore not-to-be-touched) version of the final scene, but whether she was or not, I still don’t get it. I just don’t understand why Cadsuane was the one to see Rand leave, instead of who it should have been, which was Moiraine.
Moiraine was the one who started this whole thing, after all. She was the one who came to Emond’s Field and found the Dragon Reborn at the very beginning. She was there when he began his journey, and so it kind of kills me a little that she wasn’t the one to see him end it to begin another one. That would have been so much better a bookend for her character (and the story) than what she actually did here, which was to just kind of hang around and comfort people in the background.
But then, I also wanted to see more of Nynaeve than we did, and more of Tam, and maybe Mat meeting up with his father, and maybe Thom meeting up with Elayne, and also Mat and Perrin together again, and actually I’m still not happy that we never got all the surviving original group from TEOTW in the same room ever again after TDR, and blah blah blah yakety smack. So obviously unless this Epilogue was going to go on for another hundred pages some things had to be left out.
I still think I’m right about Moiraine, though.
Moghedien: HA-ha!
Tam made me cry, the end. Although I certainly hope someone is going to clue him in at some point that his son is actually still alive, because otherwise that is cold.
As for the clued-in folks, again I was a little surprised we didn’t get a bit more with “the three,” as everyone apparently suddenly knows them as, but on balance I’m okay with that. I’m still curious about how exactly the logistics of Elayne, Aviendha, and Min’s relationship with Rand is going to fall out, but that’s mostly just details, and it was completely right to leave any speculation or discussion thereof out.
As for Rand, all told he probably set a record for “number of prophecies fulfilled in a 24-hour period,” but the one that made me laugh was remembering this one from ACOS:
A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.
We had it marked in the FAQ as “Absolutely no clue on this one,” and it was unique in being the only prophecy, as far as I recall, that no one seemed to have any even vague speculation on. And here it is, the last one fulfilled (except the Alivia one, technically). I’m not really sure why that amuses me so much, but it does.
Were people upset about the body-switching thing? I was not upset about the body-switching thing. I was a little nonplussed by it, I think, but overall I think it was a rather clever solution to how you could have Rand die and yet also live without having a full-on actual facts resurrection.
Though this does remind me that there was one piece of foreshadowing re: Rand’s technical death that most distinctly was not fulfilled, which is the multiple references to Nynaeve “not being satisfied until she Healed someone three days dead” scattered throughout several earlier books. It’s not a gaffe, because I don’t think it was ever an official prophecy per se, but I’m still kind of miffed that it didn’t happen that way—not least because then Nynaeve would have had something more to do, and that would have made me happy. Oh well.
And then there is The Impossible Pipe, which along with Nakomi (and her almost certain cameo right at the beginning of the Epilogue) are two things which Brandon and Team Jordan have stated that we are never, ever getting explained to us. That hasn’t stopped the fans from speculating madly about them both, of course, but for me personally, I… kind of don’t really care.
Well, I care, but not enough to get myself worked up about it. Nakomi especially was so briefly introduced and un-fleshed-out as a character, that I just couldn’t muster the spare energy to wonder who she was in more than a passing manner. I sort of like the idea that she was the Creator’s avatar, the way Shadar Haran was the Dark One’s avatar, although if so I don’t really know why out of everyone else, Aviendha was the only one besides Rand himself who rated a visit. Plus that smacks awfully of cheating for a deity with such a strict noninterference clause. So, I dunno.
As for the pipe and how Rand lit it without channeling, I heard the best explanation for that EVER at this year’s JordanCon, which was “Now Rand can see the Matrix.” And I was like, ZOMG THAT’S AWESOME STOP THERE, and as far as I’m concerned that’s the answer and everyone else can go home. Ha!
But all technical and stylistic questions and/or complaints aside, reading about Rand riding away, free of his pain and sorrows and burdens, being finally done and able to go about living a life he thought he’d never get… well. That made it all worth it. Maybe it’s not the cool thing anymore to have a happy ending, even a happy ending this bittersweet, but I don’t care.
Because it was an ending, and the ending Robert Jordan wanted us all to have, and now, at long last, we have it. I call it good.
And that’s an ending for me as well. I’ll be back next week, to wrap things up and talk about the experience of doing the Reread and about Tor.com’s plans for WOT and me in the future, but the actual rereading part of the Reread is done.
And I have… oh, so, so many feelings about that, so come back next Tuesday and feel them with me, okay? Until then, cheers!
What a run…
Leigh, your first post (of actually commenting on a chapter of EotW was on January 20, 2009. You have been at this little project for 1,933 days (or 5 years, 9 months and 17 days, if you prefer).
Kudos and many thanks.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Congrats Leigh. Not much else to say, is there?
Triva question – can anyone answer without looking? Which Tor.com blogger gave the first comment on the first EOTW post?
“…so I should probably try and come to terms with the fact that some people actually prefer giant piles of crazy over, er, whatever the opposite of that is (small plateaus of sanity?)…”
Possibly one of the most awesome sentences I have ever read. So many internet cookies to you!
Thank you so much for your dedication to this re-read! It’s been so wonderful reading along with you. I’m sad it’s over….but it’s never really over, is it?
Rand can see the Matrix…yeah I think I can go with that. I rather like that, actually.
I know there were bits of AMOL I thought could have been done better, but I am just glad that we got an ending. RJ’s ending, even!
Thank you again, Leigh :-D
Yep, thanks for all of this Leigh. This is a book I will most probably never reread. I was not particularly thrilled with it, neither is my brother, to whom I’ve said nothing, who is only just now listening to the audio book. Yes, the big chapter is apparently just as tough in audio form.
Congrats on finishing the reread. With all your now spare time, got any other plans? You can’t double down on Ice and Fire unless you want to be years ahead of the author. Let us know what your plans are please :)
Thank you Leigh, this was a great journey to undertake and you did a fantastic job. I love these books, even those sections which most had a problem with. It was great to have the story grow through the power of other commenters observations. Wish this could be done with all the books I love.
I know that happy endings are not in fashion anymore, but I love them. This was a great ending to a series I have been reading for 22 years. I, like many others, wish there could have been more wrapped up, but I am happy with what I was allowed. Look forward to the Encyclopedia to fill in some missing gaps (or not) and to rereading these books again and again.
Thanks Leigh.
And so here we are. Wow. Even reading Leigh’s summary, I found myself a little teary-eyed (must be the damn dust in the air) going over the final events of the series.
This is the only book in The Wheel of Time series that I haven’t fully reread (every other one I’ve probably reread multiple times, even CoT; TSR, FoH and LoC I’ve probably reread the most). I was content with the ending, though I had my questions and my criticisms. But I have a great sense of fulfillment from this book.
So thanks to RJ, Brandon and all of Team Jordan for that. (And thanks to Ms. Butler for all of her entertaining reviews. Even when I totally disagreed with her (usually having to deal with Egwene), I always respected and enjoyed her posts.)
The end of WoT represents the end of one of the most important reading experiences of my life. I will always cherish that.
Thank you, Leigh. I’ve been reading the reread from the very beginning, and your blog and the comments have been a true delight.
i was so glad to get to the end. It was such a good book and ending and series (if only cuz its the only one we had) but i agree there were things that i wanted to see.
i thought egwene’s memorial could have been seen or at least some sisters remembering her briefly… or at least someone saying about how many sisters were left alive… (the AS were my favorite faction. idk why but i love girl groups. The Aes Sedai, the Bene Gesserit, etc) anyway i just want more info about how they ended up. did someone tell cadsuane about the oath rod? in a new age do the sisters unswear the oaths and cadsuane get a few more centuries?
i agree with Leigh on the whole perrin saving faile thing. again. but ehh…
i think overall it wouldve been nice to see some ppls reactions to peoples death. like how did amys take rhuarcs death? how did aviendha tell her about rhuarc? was melaine’s husband one of the chiefs who died?
im guessing the Ogier, the Kin, and the Wise Ones (maybe the windfinders) were the only groups without darkfriends?
i dont dislike the body switch but i cant fully be behind it because i dont know or understand how it happened….
the pipe…. he sees the Matrix. i’ll just accept that. he’s evolved beyond the Source.
Moghedian…ha! but i would have liked for her to escape… it just seemed a little too neat that all the Forsaken were taken care of. i still wonder if they executed Graendal…
i wonder about the time distortion. i guess time was moving normally away from Shayol Ghul, but once Rand sealed the Dark One did it suddenly become the same day and time as everywhere else?
I’m glad Moiraine was back but I wish the same as everyone else that we had gotten more time in her head. ooh i also wish we had been in Lan’s head to hear what he thought about her return.
and my final question is where were all the channeling Wise Ones stationed. thats roughly 400 women from 11 clans so about 4400 channelers. ( i keep rereading to see if they’re mentioned but i get caught up in the story every time and never remember till after im finished. so if someone could tell me thatd be great)
Romanda did not survive. The Sharan’s killed her when they first arrived. I found it interesting that her character went out in the same manner she lived. Not listening to reasonable suggestions made by others. Egwene told the Sisters near her to release the Source. What does Romanda do. She tries to weave a gateway to escape and is instantly killed. Some people never learn.
I will stand by my prior comments. Nakomi’s character was a waste. There are plenty of others who disagree. (Wetlandernw, comes to mind.) To each their own. But I will not re-hash my prior arguments.
I still maintain that Moggy should have got away clean. I would like to have seen at least one Forsaken alive and loose in the Fourth Age. A group of Asha’man and Aes Sedai could have been tasked with the responsibility of bringing the remaining Dreadlords (Moggy included) to justice. This could be the new purpose for the Red Ajah. I could see Perava and Androl doing well as a team of Dreadlord hunters. (This would be akin to those who hunted escaped Nazi’s after WWII.)
I acknowledge that Moggy’s capture by the Seanchan does not preclude a task force of Dreadlord hunters. But imagine the subsequent capture of Moggy spawning in-world books akin to the capture of Eichman.
Leigh, excellent point that it should have been Moiraine who noticed that Moridin’s leaving meant that somehow Rand’s soul (or whatever) got transferred into Moridin and vice versa. Something tells me that Moiraine has already or will quickly figure out the truth. Even for an Aes Sedai, she was always great at ferreting out secrets.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
and THANK YOU Leigh!
aside from ASoIaF whats next? I’m sure everyone has a series or 2 they’d love to see your opinions on
Loial’s end quote was just perfect.
So glad this is not the end, of the re-read. That we can push off for one more week.
The summary made me cry enough. I had marked down what time I finished the book, but that was on a phone stolen a few months ago.
The biggest thing with “The Three” is how bad they were at acting. The love of your life is Dead. And all of you are going around almost normal. So therefore everyone who know you are thinking “WTH? Where’s the grief? Something is up.” Love Ny going to Avi because she can’t run away.
Mat having an quick exit stage left to fireworks? Somehow it worked for me. Yes, part of it is because I know RJ meant for more to happen with him. Thus why Karede got to live as well.
Moghedien getting captured because she was not wearing a ring and the face of the Sharan, totally works for me. If she was wearing the face of an allied nation and still got popped, there would be bigger issues.
Moiraine as Amyrlin… I just don’t see it. She spent too much time outside of the Tower. The others don’t know her in any real way. They wanted a strong leader. Yes, Moiraine can be that. But I think she would be miserable trapped at the Tower. Now I think Cadsuane will be too, but in a different way. And I think she will be the one to keep those learning alliances with the Aeil, Kin & Sea Folk.
Edit: Oops. You said Moiraine see Radn leave, not Cadsuane. Yep, have to agree there. But guessing this is part of the RJ’s “not to be touched” ending. And he wanted us to know the future of the White Tower in one little bit.
Thank you Leigh!
Thank you Everyone!
What a ride. I’ve been on it for about 2.5 years with you.
My best guess for the pipe incident is that Rand now has access to the Power in its truest sense, as an undivided whole. It includes both halves of the One Power, and the True Power, intermingled. When working in full concert they have the power to Create in a sense that any one of the three alone (or even both halves of the One Power working together in a circle) can accomplish. As for the body swap, I’m of two minds. On the one hand it seems very fitting, and it gives a great sense of hope and possibility. On the other, I have theological objections due to the true nature of identity (a great many people define identity soley soul-ly and either reject or ignore the body, which is the error of the docetists). All in all, it worked well enough that I can’t really object except philosophically (unlike the nature of the Dark One and the outcome of the core conflict between Rand and the DO) [apologies for the block of text; my enter key decided not to work today]
@@.-@: What counts as the “First Post”?
The Intro to the Re-Read or EotW Part 1?
I looked it up, won’t post answer, but they don’t seem to be regulars anymore.
I have a few chills. Wow.
Totally agreed that Moiraine should have been the one to see Rand…would have been full circle. Heck, maybe even made Amrylin, just because, heh.
I didn’t really view Nakomi as an avatar of the Creator, but perhaps an angel-type creature. Sort of like in Galactica with Starbuck or head-Six.
And it ends with the wind. That was perfect for me. I’m good.
Thanks Leigh, and thanks Loonies.
Hello everyone.
It’s been a while since I’ve been here, but I was advised by a friend that the re-read was coming to an end, so I thought I’d drop by to say hello again, and also to express my appreciation to Leigh and all the other prolific commenters for all the pleasure the re-read has given me over the years.
Porphyrogenitus@15 – “As for the body swap, I’m of two minds. ”
I don’t know if you did that on purpose, but that was kinda funny.
Leigh thank you! You have done a great job, I am happy that this series which meant so much to me was left in your capable hands.
I was disappointed with several aspects of this book, but the number one thing that still upsets me when I think of it is how Moiraine was so callously tossed aside.
Moiraine is the Gandalf of this series, and to diminish her role for so many books and then when she finally comes back, make her part of the background furniture is really upsetting.
As much as I like Sanderson and read all his books religiously, I don’t think I can ever not be pissed off with him the way he handled her story line.
I am stuck to freebasing fan fictions on Moiraine to get me by each time I go into a mad epileptic like fit, thinking about this damn book and how it neglected my first book crush Moiraine Damodred.
Rand “can see the Matrix” or, as Aviendha put it “has woken from the dream.” There are many instances in Buddhist, Hindu, but also Western mythology that imply that truly “AWAKE” individuals can manipulate the cave-wall shadows that most folk call “Reality.” And Dreams have been a central theme in the saga. I don’t know that RJ had a clear, detailed meta-reality worked out, but he MIGHT have. Rand, as Buddha (the Awakened One), is able to manipulate our Matrix at will. A good closing.
“But it was an ending.”
And what an ending it was. Yes, there are things that could have, or perhaps should have, happened, that didn’t, or that we didn’t see, but it is still a great ending to a great series.
And of course, thank you Leigh!
Good times.
I think it’s impossible for anything to be completely satisfying to all those who have participated in it, especially a series of books that spanned such a great period of time. RJ certainly knew it wouldn’t satisfy everyone.
The conclusion was enough for me at least and I’m glad I was able to read it, regardless of the disappointments and might-have-beens. Most of all, I’m glad that Rand got to walk off into the sunset, with a world to see and explore. I hope he gets lots of opportunities to play for his dinner. I can’t really imagine a better ending for him.
After giving it a lot of thought, I’m not really going to complain about the things that I found personally lacking or troublesome. They’re definitely there but some of them have been said before and really, I hope that I’ll still be able to sit down with someone at a future time years down the road and talk to him or her about this experience of reading these books and living with these characters I loved so much. I’ll bitch all I want then. There’s plenty of time yet and plenty of re-reads. Hopefully, new people will still be discovering the Wheel of Time for years yet to come. There will always be conversations to be had as the Wheel turns.
Thanks for that, RJ.
And thanks to you, Leigh, for bringing us all together to experience these stories the way we have. It’s been a phenomenal experience from beginning to end and I’m glad to have taken part in it.
Thank you Leigh! It has been a treat to read all of these years and I look forward to the future.
I’ve followed the reread since the very, very beginning but but never posted. I feel like I’ve lived and breathed WoT for the last 13 years since a friend got me hooked on it. Sometime on my first read-through I found I had to start keeping a list of Aes Sedai, factions, abilities, timelines, etc, just to keep things straight, as there were no spoiler-free resources. I ended up with a dense 40 pages of stuff that I updated with each book.
Despite all that technical grounding of characters and plots, I have immensely enjoyed Leigh’s summaries and commentary for the focus she brought to the themes of the work, as well as interpretations I had never thought were possible. We disagreed mightily many times, and though I never wanted to get bogged down in the discussions I still got a kick out of sitting back and watching the sparks fly. Thank you for all that you did to keep this epic project going and for creating a lively community here. Thanks also to the regular posters who have kept things entertaining all this time. Yinz are all nuts.
I loved this series, I loved AMoL and I loved Sanderson’s contribution to the end, imperfect as it is. I mourn the loss of RJ’s prose as much as the man himself. But as a wise man once said, “Always leave them wanting more.” Even had he lived, we would still have unanswered questions, and that’s for the better I think. It keeps the world alive.
BTW, Romanda died in the Sharan sneak attack. Shouldn’t have channeled when Egwene told her not to.
The “narrow bed” prophecy from when I first heard it reminded me of the Corpus Christi Carol and the whole scene in the tent reinforces it. Rand is the bleeding and dying Fisher King/messiah, with women weeping by his bed… and there’s even a prominent falcon in this chapter.
Nakomi – such an interesting mystery. I’m in the Creator’s avatar camp. The Creator’s alleged noninterference is based on the catechisms that people “know” to be true, and as such things are always suspect. We have two times in the series when the Creator SPOKE to Rand. And there are the parallels to Christ, with a dying Messiah calling out to his Father(Mother). But of course we’ll never get an official answer. It’s all just fuel for the pyre, that will keep that wheel in the sky turning.
And I’ll never forget reading the quote Harriet read at Jim’s funeral: “He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone.”
Congrats Leigh on finishing the reread… I have to admit that I was kind of skeptical if you could really pull it off (especially when you started taking on other rereads etc). Glad I was wrong. Your insights and summaries for each section were fantastic.
I think I had the same reaction most everyone else felt when I first read The End of the Last Book of The Wheel of Time… Wow what a ride! I cant beleive it is over and happy/sad feels at the same time. Definitely the end of an Era.
On my first read of this book, I was unsatisfied with the ending but now… I am happy to have an ending to the story and I think most of the questions/unsatisfying ending are just due to Robert Jordan dying before the last book.. RJ always said that he had the ending already written way back when he started the series and I think some of the inconsistancies stem from that. When the first books of the series came out the world/magic system wasnt quite as consistent as what we ended up with. I like the idea that now Rand can manipulate the pattern… works for me. who knows if RJ had lived, I am bet the whole ending would be more detailed and fleshed out but that wasnt meant to be and at least we got an ending… and it is one I am mostly happy with after some time to think about it.
WHOOOOOO!! That is what I say!! And at the end of the book I just put it down and thought…This was it and it was Good. Just a profound sense of satisfaction and finality. I am happy that my best friend introduced me to this series. Thank you Leigh for giving us this gift!
I don’t always comment, but when I do it is usually to pick at something Leigh said that bothers me.
This time, I wanted to agree about how Moiraine would have been a better bookend than Cadsuane. More than agree – I think I may just go in and FindReplace so that’s how it reads for me in the future.
Mazel Tov on the reread.
One comment on the chapter that bugged me – It’s really a nasty thing that Tam and Nynaeve and the others that love Rand think he’s dead. And Rand doesn’t seem to care. Bad Rand!
And he *loves* the “Three” so much that he’s off to have adventures? I don’t think the word means what he thinks it means.
I just am disappointed in Rand’s character at the end
Oh, man.
Man… The funeral scene never fails to make me tear up good and hard. Tam has always been a sturdy old oak, a fixed, solid point… and having him break down under the weight of both his pride and his sorrow here cuts deep.
RE: Nakomi and the Pipe: It’s a bit mystifying but it’s not gonna drive me nuts. The pipe, especially; “Rand can see the Matrix” is as good an explanation as any. It is entirely believable that after having an entire climactic battle composed of dueling with the embodiment of all evil using strands of potential futures as weapons, that he’d be left with the knowledge necessary to tamper with the fiddly little gears under the hood of the world.
RE: Perrin and Faile: I dunno, I never had any problem with this. The relationship between Perrin and Faile never bothered me as badly as it seems to bother other fans, quite frankly (the Plotline of Doom only irritated because of the extended length, not the content thereof). I was happy they didn’t kill her off and wish them the best in whatever future might have been planned-but-not-written.
RE: Mat. My boy. Mat… Well… you know what? I’m cool with this too. Let me stretch out and go into some deeper detail here.
Mat, in some ways, remained the most static character of the main cast. He underwent some serious change very early on through the dagger taint, Healing, and encounter with the ‘Finns, but after that his only real lesson to be learned was to stop dragging his feet and face the duties laid out for him.
That said, there’s two character traits that Mat has had from the very beginning, that has never really shifted or altered. One of them, of course, is that oddball sense of personal honor he carries; he may be a scoundrel, but he’s an honest one and takes his word seriously. The other…
Mat is, at his heart, a daredevil. He cannot, will not, just relax and be content. If Moiraine had never come and the Two Rivers had gone on as it always had, he probably would have ended up either leaving or getting himself injured doing something foolish, because Mat can’t be happy unless he’s turning things on their heads.
In the Two Rivers, he never stopped dreaming up pranks. He never really thought those through all the way (see: let’s cover Luhhan’s dogs in flour), but he also never stopped doing them, even after (for example) Alsbet Luhhan nearly had to be forcibly restrained from skinning him. And he never lost that.
Exploring Shadar Logoth. Bombing his way into the Stone of Tear. (Tinkering with fireworks, when he’s repeatedly been warned that even cutting them open can ignite them!) Diving his way into ‘Finnland a second time after he barely made it out the first. He tempered it a bit once he formed the Band, since he’s less inclined to gamble with other men’s lives, but the Band still made a name for itself with unconventional and daring tactics.
Of the three Superboys, Perrin gladly would retire to some farm village to raise sheep and children (even if that isn’t really an option any longer). Rand was quite clear that he was looking FORWARD to taking some time off and exploring the world as something other than the Messiah.
Mat would last about a week of quiet retirement before going absolutely bugnuts.
I’ll also be clear that I’ve long thought Tuon to be a fairly good match for Mat, culture clash aside. She’s one of the very few women in the series sharp enough to keep up with him, and despite her referring to having him killed, we’ve had plenty of evidence of genuine mutual affection. Being the Prince of the Ravens may not be fun, but it would be very, very hard to argue that it’s likely to be boring. And in the end, I think I can live with that.
oh god i wall of texted
My take on the pipe thing with Rand is that during the battle, he and the DO were fighting over which reality would come true, and after the battle, Rand’s did. So the whole world is kind of like a Tel’aran’rhiod bubble of Rand’s.
He was not the creator, but he was a creator.
It also explains the mechanics behind the body exchange.
Thanks for the awesome re-read Leigh. I look forward to more WoT related goodness. I’ve been all over these books since I was 12 years old; 19 years later, I’m not ready to let them go.
Will wait til next week for the big thanks and appreciation of all Leigh’s efforts.
My interpretation of the pipe lighting, and I’m sure it’s been stated here and elsewhere, but honestly I have never looked, is that Rand’s transformation (i.e., the whole process of the battle with dark one, creating other “alternate” realities, etc) provided him with a permanent link to TAR. The one place where strength of mind lets you create what you want. I guess that means that if he wanted, he could create/modify anything he wanted. And at that moment, he really wanted to have his pipe lit.
@@.-@ i can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not i.
Wow, we have “an ending” already! I honestly thought that there were still a couple of weeks left.
This has been a great re-read, which was more enjoyable than (some of) the actual books in certain ways. I first came across it when Leigh was finishing TFoH and it actually caused me to pick up and read the last 5 WoT books, as I was very much a lapsed reader of the series at the time.
Despite all the nitpicking on my part, it was satisfying to see it completed… even though I am one of those grimdark people, who are disappointed by the low death count among the important characters and Rand’s survival in particular.
And, of course, it was a mammoth undertaking on Sanderson’s part to finish a series by another author, which was overflowing with characters and plotlines and practically bristling with foreshadowings, prophecies, binding visions of the future and all that jazz.
Yes, I have my quibbles with how all this stuff has been tied up, but then, I stopped reading while RJ was still at the helm, so I am fairly confident that I wouldn’t have been completely happy with the conclusion either way.
Having said that:
“The Aes Sedai who got truly shafted in the Epilogue, though, was Moiraine. She got shafted in all of AMOL, really, but especially here.”
Thousand times this!!! Moiraine, who was notable for her accurate reading of meanings in people’s half-twitched eye-brows and stuff, is seemingly completely blindsided by the harem trio’s lack of grief!
Moirane and Nynaeve, cowardly abandoning Rand and _running_ out of the cave, presumably attenuating his link to saidar in the process and making it more difficult to him to do his thing!
I mean, Nyn always wanted to protect Rand, how did this happen? And IMHO Moiraine would have also felt that she owed it to Rand to try to save him or at least take him outside, so he’d die under an open sky…
Ditto them being just saidar conduits for Rand and not participating in his ordeal in any way, not providing him with emotional support and strength (as links were wont to do in previous instances) at all!
But Nynaeve had Alanna, you say. Alas, I felt that Alanna thing was a huge missed opportunity too. Because, if Alanna’s death would have thrown Rand into suicidal warder rage, then Aviendha and Elayne participating in the battle was height of insanity. And what was the point of the triple bonding, if it wasn’t to provide Rand with additional anchors in case of one of the bonders dying?
IMHO, Alanna’s death should have served to show that Rand couldn’t be thrown out of the game by something like this anymore.
Oh, and my view of Cadsuane as that hated interloper, who usurped Moiraine’s place, while being a significantly less interesting character proved to be prophetic, sigh… She even steals a final goodbye with Rand…
And why, or why, would anybody think that making this relic an Amyrlin in a new and changed world would be a good idea?!
I am also surprised that the trio, all of whom have lost friends during the Battle of Merrilor, found it so difficult to pretend being sad. Particularly Elayne, who lost a brother, an adoptive uncle in Bryne, a close friend in Egwene, another friend in Siuan… she really shouldn’t have found it difficult to show some grief.
Seanchan – repulsive as ever. Also, while it is nice that Moghedien won’t be in position to try to become an empress, the impications of her capture are very disturbing. After all, the Kin, the Windfinders and the Aiel WOs don’t wear AS rings either, so they would have been a fair game for sul’dam too.
I never could get behind Sanderson’s assurances that Arthur Hawkwing would have been A-OK with the Seanchan too. Because:
*he didn’t seem to like them in TGH,
*he was a very pro-commoner rights and publicly accessible ruler, so the whole culture of abasement and slavery should have sickened him
*his first family was murdered, so he likely wouldn’t have been in favor of “promotion by assassination” approach
*and finally, it has been very strongly implied in the worldbook that his second wife, whom he had also loved, and who was the mother of Luthair and forbear of the Imperial dynasty, was a channeler! One of the White Tower rejects. Ba-da-bum! Another in the series of the foreshadowed revelations about channelers and channeling that seemed aimed at revolutionizing Seanchan society, only to completely fizzle out, once RJ decided to write the outriggers. Sigh…
Liked Perrin’s role during the battle with the DO, and the cool twist with Lanfear. But come on! His yet another rescue of Faile felt like cheap cheating. And after she has had such a moving death-scene too… made me love her for the first time ever.
Brigitte’s “death which wasn’t quite death” , by contrast, felt earned. Because, in the end, it was an irrevocable goodbye to her friends anyway. She is, for all purposes, gone.
Aviendha’s vision has been changed for good now, that’s somewhat reassuring.
It is quite incomprehensible that major efforts wouldn’t be directed at the capture of a known Forsaken (Rand in Moridin’s body), though. Nobody knows that he is biurned-out, IIRC and somebody with his power and skills, as well as potential longevity, would be a deadly threat for humanity even with the DO sealed.
Having said all that this:
“He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone.”
Still makes my throat tighten and is such a fitting last sentence for WoT…
@32 – Then Naomi is Rand’s mum. Because if he was going to rewrite the universe, his mum would be there.
No, this doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but its as good of an explanation as any! Except it has lots of problems – but ignore those.
Well done Leigh, very well done indeed. This re-read has been as much fun as the first time I read the books themselves. While I might not always agree with the different opinions presented here, I’ve loved being able to have a deeper appreciation of the books by learning what others think and having my assumptions challenged.
One point I completely agree with is that Moiraine got shafted by AMOL. There’s no reason that seeing Rand leave had to be tied to the finding the next Amyrlin. She should have been the one to watch him walk away. Oh well. File it under “would have been nice if it worked out that way” along with a whole bunch of life, because rarely do things work out just so. Which is how I feel about the pipe. I hate that we don’t (and won’t) find out the answer, but it’s the right thing for the story that we don’t know how Rand does it. There’s always going to be unknowns. It’s a good ending.
Thoughts on Nakomi. I definitely think she’s an agent of the Creator. She’s the only one to do anything similar to what Rand does with the pipe (building the fire in ToM). As far as the “I will take no part” business is concerned, I always assumed that was only in regard to the battle against the Dark One. With that in mind, there are only two instances of Nakomi getting involved during the story. The first is to nudge Aviendha towards discovering the fate of the Aiel (which has nothing to do with The Last Battle) and the second is to approve of Rand’s choices after the battle has been won. I also like to think that the body switch comes from her, functioning as a “reward” of sorts to Rand for doing the right thing. Anyway, just some musings. I’ve been a fan of this reread for the past couple years but never got around to posting until the end (better late than never I suppose). Thanks for everything Leigh!
“Guy” not “Gut” as in 23 above. I once TRIED to go black but misfired and never worked to figure out why.
The Moraine-as-Amyrlin thing. Yes. Agree with Leigh, and wonder why she was ignored in favor of Cadsuane. An ending featuring Moraine triumphant would be the perfect match with the beginning in NS. Cadsuane was a late-arrival who was abrasive and never worked well with others whom she couldn’t dominate. I predict a less-than-successful term for har as Amyrlin. In fact, she has far too much in common with Elaida IMO.
Again: now that Leigh points it out, it’s the obvious choice of ending for the WT. So RJ and/or BWS MUST have considered and rejected it. WHY?
Wow, I have only been following the re-read since you started AMOL, after I finished reading it for the first time and I still wanted more from the series. I ended up here reading all of your insights Leigh and can I just say thank you so much? Even though I wasn’t a part of the beginning of this, it’s still amazing what you’ve done.
I actually got a little teary-eyed at work while reading through this today. I know there were flaws and some story lines we wanted more of or didn’t see at all, but overall this just felt like a good ending to me. I had no idea how Rand had switched bodies, but it’s just one of the mysteries of the WoT universe. I will say however that this chapter was not as powerful for me as when Egwene sacrificed herself. I outright cried in that chapter.
What to do now? What to read? I feel like I’m at the end of a cliff – waiting for the next books in other series to come out and waiting for rereads of another, but none of them will compare to this one! Oh, the feels!
Until next week ….
BT@16 – I was using first post of EOTW but no doubt I’m open to extra credit for first poster in the initial pre-read post too.
EDIT – Leigh – can you explain the reference made in the very first post in the initial re-read post to “PARASHA”? Not getting it but you seemed to.
Leigh, thanks for all your hard work. Its been awesome to hear your thoughts, whether I agreed with them or not. Thanks for that. Can’t wait to see what’s next.
Leigh, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Also, congratulations – you finished it!
RobMRobM @@.-@:
If it’s the one which just stated: “PARASHA”, then I for one remember :-)
Thanks Leigh. The Reread has been an awesome ride. It was great when I finally got to meet you after years of me pouring through the WoTFAQs and, later, the Reread. And I’ve managed to meet some wonderful people thanks to it all. Great job! (But you already know that!)
The end of the series was fantastic. I’m really grateful Team Jordan and Team Sanderson completed it all.
I am one of those people who have followed and enjoyed the Re-Read and not really posted anything. So many thanks to Leigh, and the community as well!
As for the body-switch thing, is it possible that Rand used the True Power for this and did something similar to what the Dark One did for recycling his Forsaken? For example, recall the chapter in Lord of Chaos when Aginor wakes up in his new body. The experience seems kind of similar to Rand waking up in his new body.
Or maybe the same thing can be accomplished with the One Power, and Alivia was the one who did it. It’s also interesting that Rand’s body-switch seems to have been a gradual process (one gaining strength and one dying) while the Dark One has been recycling people already dead. Except for Lanfear/Cyndane maybe? Did Lanfear really die when the Dark Side fetched her from the Finn realm? Maybe she was body-switched as a punishment?
I always just assumed that Elayne or Aviendha lit Rand’s pipe for him.
He thought really hard about how much he wanted a good smoke, she felt it through the bond, looked over, and hooked him up.
I’m probably not suspicious enough to be a serious literary theorizer.
Leigh – Wow we are really done. Can’t wait to read all your recaps of recaps next week! I’d love more discussion on how the body switching took place, still a little unclear on how that was accomplished.
Amir – yes, that is the first post of the intro re-read post – that word by itself. My original trivia question went to the first poster on the first EOTW post – who is a Tor.com blogger.
RobMRobM
I remembered the PARASHA comment since it was such a great shoutout to the old rasfwr-j usenet group :-)
Before I read any of the comments…..Thank you, Leigh. You have made my days/weeks/years with your wonderful, insightful, very funny posts about this epic series. I feel so very thankful to have found this forum so long ago, and you, and all the new friends I’ve made here.
As for the ending….
-Mat is nuts, agreed. But I love him! Still gambling.
-Too much Perrin/Faile time. I would’ve loved to have seen her saving herself, as well. Shrug.
-Loved Birgitte’s send off with Elayne.
-I also loved the 3 ladies vowing to convince the world that Rand was gone, when they obviously knew he wasn’t. So a weave must be laid upon the Soul? Not the body? It obviously transferred with his body switch.
– I am so happy Rand got a healthy body, with all it’s parts and no extra holes in it!! And when he lit the pipe, I thought, yes! Now he can see the Pattern, having rewoven it himself, having been inside and outside of it in Shayol Ghul. How incredibly in tune with the universe he must be!
Live long and prosper, Rand!
-In my fantasy of Rand’s life after the Last Battle, he wanders the world, plays music, and his ladies find him whenever they can, since they can Travel, (except for Min, who they will help). Rand will also eventually visit his father and convince him of his identity, and all will be well. Perhaps he’ll even settle in the Two Rivers, now governed by Perrin, and raise his children there…children by Min, Avi, even visits by the royal twins. ;-) It’s a nice day dream, one he has certainly earned!
His mind still contains much important information from the age of Legends too, which he may or may not choose to impart. I wonder if he’ll swear Loial to secrecy, and do in interview about his LB with the DO?
Edit to add: I completely agree about Moraine!! It should’ve been her seeing Rand riding away and knowing who it was. Full circle!
Thank you, Leigh. Looking forward to your wrap up post.
And thanks to all the re-readers. It’s been a blast. This is kind of like an awesome book club for me and I’ve enjoyed it immensely.
I was wondering where you ran off to JL…
Leigh,
Thank you so much for all your hard work. Haven’t been commenting too much over AMOL because I really didn’t like the ending at all and I didn’t want to be a buzzkill over 60 parts. You always did an awesome job as did the long time posters. Will keep lurking over at Fire and Ice.
Bawambiofthebigappleaiel
Tektonica@52, that’s a real nice vision you describe of Rand after the Last Battle. I often wonder whether Tam (and Mat and Perrin) were in on things. But since we’ll never know I really must spend more time just… imagining… what happened next.
Leigh, thanks so much. The Reread has been one constant for me through some really extreme personal highs and lows, but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed every single one of your posts. Looking forward to seeing what you’re gonna do next.
Just thought I’d provide my thoughts on Moiraine’s final scene (versus Cadsuane’s moment), since in my mind it was a pretty nice bit of closure for her…
I think it’s perfectly appropriate for Cadsuane, the late-comer, the eternal meddler, to be the one to know Rand is alive and to just stick that in her back pocket.
As for Moiraine, I much prefer ending her story with the mistaken assumption of Rand’s death, because in effect his story’s end is her story’s end. She dedicated her life to putting this guy on track to do what he had to do, and he did it in spades—in part because she knew when to drag him around, in part because she learned when to back off, and in part because she came back from oblivion to be there for whatever he needed.
Now he is dead, and that is sad—for her, for us. But it also means she can just be done. She can take satisfaction in a well-accomplished job, and transition into a life with Thom and being a way less complicated Aes Sedai.
And I think the fact that she is the one to offer Tam a moment of physical comfort on his loss underlines this in Moiraine. In a way, she was Rand’s mother-figure as Tam was his father-figure. Much less so than Tam, of course, but she raised him up out of the infancy of his life in the Two Rivers, set him on a path in life, dealt with his adolescent stubbornness, and stood as a symbol for him of all his confused, agonized issues for a good long time until he was able to resolve them—on his own, but with the mark of her teaching in him indelibly. And so, Rand’s two parent-figures come together in the end to mourn the loss of their ‘son’ and to begin the new lives that come after.
(And maybe, since other commenters pointed out how perceptive she is and would likely get that something was up with the Three, just maybe she decided to actively believe he was dead—to let him have his life, and to let her have her own.)
I think she deserves it, really. Just as I think Cadsuane deserves to have to deal with the niggling knowledge that he’s alive, which will drive her crazy because she knows it would be totally awful of her to ever reveal it for any kind of political effect.
Just my way of thinking, but I like it. I also think that this way is actually MORE full circle than if Moiraine demonstrated awareness of his survival. She was, in a way, “present” for his birth; now she is present as he is “laid to rest.” It’s not circularity in the sense of the main body of the narrative, but it is circular in terms of their wider history together.
Anyway, I mostly lurked here for years, but always enjoyed Leigh’s commentary and the discussions they engendered. Can’t wait to see what comes next. Thanks, Leigh!
Wow. It’s over. Funnily enough, my fandom almost synch’s up with Leigh’s time-wise, and I’m pretty sure I joined rasfwrj not long after she did (like here, I was more of a lurker than a regular contributor there). I still can’t believe the journey is over, and not just in context of the novels, but the re-read as well (which I always viewed as sort of an evolution of the old newsgroup… at least as a place to get my fix of WoT discussion).
I definitely fall into the “worthy ending” camp, because I was certainly satisfied when I finished reading… even though I also feel like it wasn’t the ending we were “supposed” to get. I often think of Brandon as an eye-witness, giving us his account of the events leading up to the Last Battle… the broad strokes are there, its mostly right, but it’s not what “really” happened (that’s probably my lawyer side creeping in).
Speaking of which, Leigh, thank you again for helping keep me sane in my office with the re-read. My Tuesday coffee/mental health breaks will never be the same (although we have a long way to go with the ASOIAF read, so Thursdays are still good).
And finally, thank all of you for the excellent discussion every week! This has been one hell of a ride.
I was a bit upset concerning the Resurrection of Rand. The foreshadowing concerning his being three days dead (and Nyn bringing him back) as well as the boat in “[t]hree on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives” prophecy (coupled with Tar Valon/Avalon being surrounded by water and Arthur/al’Thor being the once and future king) just sort of fell through. I kind of rationalize it as happening in ravenhaired Rand’s future (outside of the scope of the books).
(I figure that he will eventually be revealed as, at least, politically important, seeing as how each of his wives are leaders in their respective cultures/countries and are clearly important to the world historically at this point. How could he visit them without becoming important, or being so already?)
I hope that Mat still has his luck, even if he is no longer ta’veren. It was such an integral part of his character. And he will need it in Seanchan. (Not to mention: how could he have been a central character to the outrigger novels if he lacks his defining characteristic?)
The other characters, including our Superboys, retain some of their “gifts”. Perrin is still a wolfbrother and can shift into TAR; he also has a cool hammer. (I hope that he retains his people skills.) Rand can light his pipe without resorting to conventional means. It seems fairly reasonable that Mat should retain his memories (I see no reason for him to lose them) as well as his luck. (Confer my upcoming discussion on Deep Magic.)
What becomes of the Band of the Red Hand? Where does Mat end up (in Randland or Seanchan), what really happens to the Empire politically?
Concerning “seeing the Matrix”, I figure that that probably is basically it. Rand is the embodiment of Light after all! He wove the threads of reality and he wielded all three Powers. For all the he has done for the Pattern, all of his personal sacrifice, for cleansing Saidin and sealing the Bore, the Creator has to give him some sort of super cool reward. A life of peace and of his choosing (by his anonimity) is a good start, but he would have had that anyway if he never were the Dragon at all. So he needs something better. (The Dragon fang-shaped saa in his eye, I take it, is another nod- of thanks and respect- from the Creator.)
But it is not entirely beyond some modicum of explanation. I am not saying that it is “physically possible” in the conventional sense in this universe. I think that it is beyond that; it should be “impossible” and somewhat without precedent. Yet, as I take it, there is a “Deep Magic” (borrowing from C. S. Lewis) to the world of the Wheel of Time. If Saidin and Saidar are magic, then there are things that are magic beyond magic. (I actually think that that sort of deus ex machina “magic beyond magic” is an integral part of any good fantasy story)
The Horn of Valere, the Portal Stones, wolfbrothers, possibly the Finns, possibly Mat’s luck, possibly ta’verenhood, possibly TAR and shifting, and probably a few other things that I am forgetting all pre-date and are of a nature entirely separate from the standard magic in this universe. Why not everything that happens to Rand in the Epilogue too?
(I am sorry if this post is not very sensible. I have a lot of thoughts, but I am not sure how best to present them.)
Thanks Leigh!
I can’t wait to know what the future holds in store for the series.
Of course, Team Jordan insists that no new stories will be written in that world, but I hope there will be some new stuff to keep people interested (a movie or too wouldn’t be too much to ask, would it?)
Thank you so much Leigh, for your wit, your intelligence, your eloquence and your passion. It’s been such an almost addictive pleasure reading the Re-Read, a fine way to wave goodbye to the Wheel of Time, which has been part of my life since I discovered a very thick paperback with a large man and a small woman riding horses on the cover back in the local library in c1992.
Reading or thinking about the Wheel of Time has taken up a fair chunk of my life, so please forgive me for the macsteresque length of this entry.
I used to love WoT. My first time on the internet was mostly taken up reading the mighty FAQ. I spent more hours in the computer lab at university, reading the rec.arts.scifi.written user group.
I feel a bit jealous of all of you who are still superfans, because for a long time (starting with the circus sequence in FoH) the shine has been fading for me. Robert Jordan was too good a writer for me to drop the series, though I came close after Crossroads of Twilight. I still enjoyed each book, though for much of the series it felt like following instalment of a soap opera – here are your favourite characters, still doing much the same thing, but they’re still likeable. However, the love had gone.
The Gathering Storm rekindled things somewhat, because despite Brandon Sanderson’s grating anachronisms and terrible writing of Mat, he did a terrific job with the Rand and Egwene storylines. After putting down AMoL though, and ruminating for a while, the main feeling I felt was disappointment.
There are a few touching character moments, like Rand and Tam’s sparring, some excellent twists, like the Compulsion of the Great Captains, Olver blowing the horn and the resurrection of the wolves. Androl was a fine addition, though his telepathy with Pevara felt badly out of place in the WoT scheme of magic. Slayer vs Perrin, Demandred, Lanfear getting back into the game, Egwene vs Tuon, Noal’s return – all really good stuff.
But the book feels like 90% battles, which are made up of scenes that themselves are good, but just become a slog when put together. There’s only so much slaughter of Trollocs you can do (particularly after a zillion have already been killed during the series) before it gets boring.
The climax itself was a let-down, with Fain’s abrupt killing, the poorly foreshadowed, too-convenient twist with Callandor and the unconvincing reasoning for not killing the Dark One.
What really bugged me though was the lack of reflection. Finally in this book we have the deaths of major heroes that we’ve built up a relationship with for thousands of pages – but there are barely any opportunities for the characters or us to feel any grief, because there are so few scenes of memory and sorrow. They’re sacrificed to keep up the pace of the plot that takes us from one battle to another to another to another to another.
This really bugged me come the epilogue, which was a wasted opportunity. There’s a bit of mourning here, but it feels token. Where’s a scene with Moiraine remembering Siuan? Morgase and Elayne mourning Gawyn? Egwene’s parents at the Winespring Inn? Faile finding out her parents are dead? The frickin’ Two Rivers boys reunion? The body swap is just silly (I’m one of those who didn’t follow the speculation closely enough to be on to this theory), Alivia’s “she will help you die” role was another fizzer and while it was nice for Rand to finally get his freedom, it was really poor of him to head off without telling those who love him he’s still alive.
Then there are the hanging plot lines to do with the Seanchan, the most powerful force on the continent, who barely fought in the Last Battle. Galgan. Moghedien. Elaida. The home continent, the bargain struck with Egwene. The conversation with Hawkwing. The loss of those outrigger novels is so frustrating. Yet another reason why Jordan’s death was such a tragedy.
I found more to like than dislike in AMoL – but overall, perhaps because I really wanted the ending of WoT to be awesome, not mediocre – it was a disappointment.
A Memory of Light: 6/10
This isn’t a dig at Brandon Sanderson and Team Jordan. I have plenty of criticisms of how the final three books were written, but more praise. Filling RJ’s shoes and giving us an ending as good as the beginning was Mission Impossible, but they did a creditable job and deserve HUGE thanks from WoT fans.
But when I think about WoT now the main feelings are disappointment and frustration at the squandered potential. And that’s more to do with Robert Jordan than Brandon Sanderson.
I reread the first four books and favourite scenes from the others before AMoL and I was really struck by a few things about Jordan’s writing.
Firstly, he was such a wonderfully vivid describer. WoT is so rich in detail, so evocative of place and people.
Secondly, he was terrific at action, maybe the best I’ve ever read. Imaginative, exciting, varied, awesome.
Thirdly, though Trollocs aren’t that interesting, he created a host of memorable villains and monsters – Myrdraal, Ishamael, Lanfear, Fain, Aginor and Balthamel, Draghkar, the Black Wind, Mashadar, etc.
Fourth, the complexity is crack for epic fantasy addicts. All the plotlines and characters, the vast world and history, the myriad prophesies – so much to get your geeky teeth into.
Add to that lots of likeable heroes, a talent for intrigue and the massive scale and you tick pretty much all the essential boxes for epic fantasy. Why else would the series sell millions of books and have such ardent fans?
But for all that, WoT is a might-have-been. Had it sustained the quality of the first four books, it would have been great. But it didn’t.
There’s a lot of flaws. For example, while there are more good characters than you can poke a stick at, I like many took a long time to warm to any of the Supergirls (eventually Min and Egwene – the latter becoming one of my favourites as the series wnet on) and spent most of the time having to grit my teeth when it came to their scenes. And there’s no great characters in the series. No true icons of fantasy, like Gandalf or Tyrion. Mat (as written by Jordan) perhaps comes closest, though you could make a case for Rand based on his very well planned descent into darkness, or Tuon (again as written by Jordan) for making someone with an appalling moral code likeable.
Then there’s the main philosophical themes. Initially, the reverse sexism is clever and admirable, but the battle of the sexes soon becomes irritatingly overplayed and almost veers into self parody. I’m also one of those who think the yin/yang idea of complementary differences between male and female is rubbish – there’s far, far more difference within gender than between them.
In AMoL we get the big reveal of the need for choice between good and evil to exist. But, as has been much discussed, the idea of needing to keep the Dark One around to preserve free will doesn’t make sense in a world where alternate forms of evil exist.
For a series of such incredible size, WoT can also be criticised for its limited portrayal of humanity. Excitement, awe, suspense, horror, humour – yes. But, with the exception of a few scenes (mainly Perrin and Faile) the romances are flops. It’s also hardly what you could call erotic – maybe Rand and Aviendha in the igloo aside. Judging by WoT Jordan seemed a bit uncomfortable when it comes to sex – and also sexuality, given the lack of positive gay characters (one token man in the last book). In the modern world, for a series with this many characters, some would call that disgraceful. There’s also little about parenthood and little grief, due to that infamous reluctance to kill main characters. Granted, the few scenes where there is real reason for sadness – Loial’s memorial for the Green Man, Perrin finding out about his parents, Rand reading Moiraine’s letter – are superb.
Despite all this, the strengths of WoT could still have made it a classic. It’s that dearth of death hits on WoT’s really huge problem – the length.
I’ll be blunt – Robert Jordan lost control of his plots. He had too many characters and storylines – he needed to not create so many or kill more off. As a result, character arcs and plots stalled to allow others space and the series became slow, flabby and repetitive (a book ends with Rand beating one of the Forsaken! Again!). Brandon Sanderson then ended up with far too many storylines to do justice to in AMoL, so some that should have been cool, like Fain or the arrival of the Ogier, were dealt with far too quickly. Malden, Elayne and the hateful Andoran Succession, Ebou Dar, Morgase, Gawyn, Cadsuane, the Sea Folk , most of what Rand did from the end of LoC to the start of TGS: the series would benefitted from them getting much less page time or being removed altogether.
A series of eight books as good as The Eye of the World or The Shadow Rising would have been magnificent. And Robert Jordan would have lived to see his masterpiece finished.
Most of you will disagree with my assessment, because you’re hardcore fans and love the series. Good for you – there’s no reason why my views are any more valid than yours. But sadly, for most fantasy readers and the general public, the Wheel of Time will be remarkable only for its length. And for a series with such promise, that’s such a pity.
The Wheel of Time: 7/10
It was good to get an ending. Better than good even. But satisfying?
Instinctively, my answer is no.
More disappointingly for me (mostly because this feeling rams home just how much reading this series changed for me over the years), I don’t care enough to analyze why, I wasn’t satisfied.
I find myself agreeing with others above and admiring their enduring passion for the story. The disappointment with Moiraine’s marginalisation resonated with me as I read through the comments. The profound sadness Tam’s sorrow and pride (while being kept deliberately ignorant of the truth) in his son, elicited in some comments above struck a chord.
But this is letting others do my thinking for me, instead of engaging my own coalescing views around the discussion.
The ‘Matrix’ view on the pipe lighting seems an apt co-opting of an easily identifiable element of the pop-culture zeitgeist. As for Nakomi, her presence has promoted theories above (and elsewhere I presume), that go way over my head. That’s both because of the way I like to think about the plot (i like to let it unfold, instead of pre-empting what I am about to read), and because of the brief and deliberately numinous – not to mention johnny-come-too-lately – nature of her appearance.
I find the theories presented to be trying a bit too hard to reach for meaning in a star that, while still visible in the night sky, actually winked out years ago. But as I said above, I just don’t care enough to try to come up with an idea of my own.
And that saddens me AND reminds me just how I was feeling the day I discovered ‘tor.com’ and Leigh Butler’s Re-Read. That makes the memory bitter-sweet…
… because one thing that wasn’t disappointing – in fact it rekindled a spark in my reading of WOT that I thought extinguished – was Leigh Butler’s writing.
I didn’t often agree with her agenda or take on events, but I can still conjure up the sense memory of the electric thrill I got, when I read Leigh Butler’s writing for the very first time. I couldn’t do it myself anymore, but her imaginative verve in writing style, her depth of thought in analysis and THE ZING! Those skills and gifts, so generously shared for so many years now, brought the WOT back to vivid life for me.
Thank you Leigh Butler.
And congratulations!
I hope to one day find myself sinking into the richly imagined flow of pages, of a story that is wholly your own, not just an analysis – deeply rewarding though that has been – of others’ words.
You write like a nightingale sings Leigh Butler. While all of us who listened may have not been into every ‘song’, there’s no denying the artistry that both lifted the words off the screen and dragged this reader to a place worth going, week after week. Year after year.
Congratulations again.
And my appreciation of this community too, knows no bounds. Both at the shallow end of plot preference discussion and off the deep end of analysis and revelation. To steal a phrase, ‘I don’t know art but I know what I like.’
I like it in here.
Alot.
Kudos and Thanks to you ALL.
grl
I never realized this until now, but the reason the body swap was able to work is because Moridin’s soul did not originally inhabit that body. It must have been “stuffed” in there like Osan’Gar and Aran’Gar. So there was already a “hole” where another soul could switch to as long as they were linked (by crossing the streams).
“Love and peace, Leigh. Thank you.”
Just wanted to pop in for a moment to let everyone know I’m still here. I’ve been reading the Re-read posts every week without fail for the last 5+ years, Leigh, and can’t believe it’s coming to an end. Great job!
I’ll have a more apropos comment later on. And maybe I’ll get to that backlog of 11 threads I haven’t commented on… ;)
Bzzz™.
Thanks so much Leigh Butler. It was a blast and I’m so glad I tagged along for the ride. Kudos on a job well done.
@7: Samadai – I totally agree about happu endings (I generally hate sad endings, which is why I stay away from most short fiction), as well as about liking parts most don’t (I even like the “slow” books in the series), and about re-reading the series over and over again (which I will probably do every 5-8 years until I die, I will probably be re-reading the series when I die).
Totally agree the Moiraine got robbed, big time. She was at the beginning, she should have had a much bigger part there at the end.
@31. ssherris – I really did not initially see that, but you are right, Rand was a bit of douche there leaving off: he’s got kids coming! Step up dad!
Overall, I was pleased, but I would have been 1000 x happier with RJ living another 15-20 years and making the series out to be 16-18 books. (Heck, to be honest, I would be OK with the series having been a total of 20 books.) Plus, I would love to see some stuff about the 4th Age. (Particularly from a gamers point of view – which I am, a gamer that is.) I would love to read a few stories about Olver and his becomming a Hero, which, with his origin story is guaranteed.
I pretty much have the same view with almost everything that Leigh said here.
Starting with Perrin’s ending- Wow. That was really heartbreaking reading that until he rescues Faile. The first time that I read it, I was disappointed in how it ended with no words spoken between them. Just a smile. However on re-reading it, I am fine with it as it stands. Though I do agree with Leigh that her own version would have probably been much better. (“whatevs I totally rescued myself, and what took you so long?”)
_______
As for Matt finding out that he is a daddy. It makes me wonder why Toun is now with child just when they are supposed to be going off on their grand adventures,(that we all know will never get written) like the ones Perrin/Faile just finished. I find it a bit baffeling that it was not Faile that announced to her hubby that SHE was with child. Especially since they have been married now for over a year! She could have at least mentioned it in her POV thoughts back when she was riding with the Horn. That way the smile she give Perrin at the end would have had a much more deeper and wonderous meaning. Essentially since the next important step in their story is their producing his heirs, which ties into their ruling Saldea as king and queen.
A lost opportunity there. Shame.
________
I am very glad that Birgitte and Gaidal will get back together. That was one of my most wished for things to happen. (WHOOT!)
________
Rand- He reflects that there is so much of the world he’s never seen..
LOL! He sure has seen more than what 99% of the other Randlanders have.
Whats left? Seanchan?
________
A question for you guys…
So to my understanding…this entire epilogue is Robert Jordan’s writing without exception. With not a note from anybody else? Correct?
Also, just how did Faile make it all the way back to Merrilor, which is what…hundreds of miles?
Oh, and Leigh.
I believe that you left out your assement of the book’s cover art by the legendary artist ‘Michael Whelan’. Thoughts?
Holy, schmoley, Leigh! 5+ years, girl! And SO much has happened in that time… wow. This is truly an end to an era. Congratulations on making it to the finish line!
Re: Tam. Your recap of Tam at the funeral pyre made me teary!
Looking forward to your conclusion post. Not just because it’ll be entertaining (as usual), and create plenty of warm fuzzies for the reread, but also because YOU’LL HAVE SO MUCH FREAKING TIME ON YOUR HANDS, LEIGH! How can you ever fill it all!? Do tell.
I have a quibble with Birgitte’s happy ending. Way back in Winter’s Heart, Min has a viewing of Birgitte that shows her countless lives going backward thru the Ages, tied to a slightly older man. Then there were countless viewings going forwards, with her tied to a much younger man. This seemed to confirm that her link to the Horn and the Pattern was intact, but she’d permanently be affected by Moghedien’s throwing her out of Tel Aran Rhoid. So her ending by being born right after Gaidal just seems wrong.
maybe Nakomi is the Creator’s sister? some stories have a Creator and a Dark One and then there’s usually a random 3 sibling who is the neutral party but usually aligned to good.
The Redemption of Althalus comes to mind (im surprised i remember that name) by david eddings
and theres the creator and Lord Foul and the sister She Who Must Not Be Named.
So Creator, Dark One, Nakomi, one disfunctional family
31. James Spangler-
RE: Perrin and Faile: I dunno, I never had any problem with this. The relationship between Perrin and Faile never bothered me as badly as it seems to bother other fans, quite frankly (the Plotline of Doom only irritated because of the extended length, not the content thereof). I was happy they didn’t kill her off and wish them the best in whatever future might have been planned-but-not-written.
Agreed. The Perrin/Faile combo were my favorite parts of this whole story. And very much agree with the Faile’s kidnapping plot, as it has numerous great moments in it.(And yes, knocking that plot down to two books would have been freaking awesome!) Some that were brought up on the re-read, and some that were unfortunately not. I feel that it was one of the better plots during this part of the WOT story. Especially when compaired to that long Salidar slog up to the White Tower. Or even more so, Elayne’s Caemlyn shinanigans. (Ugh!) But thats just me.
60. Greyshade-
But the book feels like 90% battles, which are made up of scenes that themselves are good, but just become a slog when put together. There’s only so much slaughter of Trollocs you can do (particularly after a zillion have already been killed during the series) before it gets
boring.
Absolutely agree on this. This was my number one problem with AMoL. I got bored as hell with all these battles. I feel most of them should have been just a brief summery. Tolkien was able to do this(The Ents attack in Isengard is never even presented live. Just in Merry and Pippen’s retelling of it). This is the major reason that this will be the only book in the series that I will never be able to fully re-read. It was the first and only time that I felt that it was a slog to read, saddly. The two books before it were great, but I will most likely only read the last 100 pages or so were the characters start taking center stage again. Which is what I LOVED most about this whole series….The Characters!
Just imagine how much more wrapping up could have been done with these amazing characters IF the battles could have been trimmed down more. (sigh)
There’s a recurring character in Sanderson works: Hoid. Would prefer better, but it does fit.
Sorry, above is not my theory, it just fits with my lack of respect for Sanderson’s work.
@67: If you really need to buy the romantic view team Jordan espouses, fine. On reading, I wouldn’t see RJ signing off on the “strictly RJ” passages as anywhere near done, and think that’s one of the bigger criticisms of the last 3 books.
tamyrlink @10 – We’ll have to wait for the official version of the Encyclopedia to see the outcome (or if we’re told), but Cadsuane definitely knew about the Oath Rod. Brandon commented once that part of the reason she was so ticked about being stuck with the Amyrlin job was that she was all set to unswear the Oaths, join the Kin, and live another century or two; if she’s stuck with the Oaths, she won’t have more than another decade or two. On the bright side, I would think that for someone like Cadsuane, this would mean that by hook or by crook she’s going to make some way to get the Aes Sedai released from the Oaths.
AndrewHB @11 – You’re right, I don’t think Nakomi’s character was a waste; it depends on what you expected of her. Unfortunately, I can’t explain it any further without telling things I promised not to tell, so… there it is. Suffice it to say that she was never intended to generate the level of curiosity she did.
Braid_Tug @14 – Yeah, I had to snicker at the three and their bad acting. I wonder what kind of excuses they came up with – or if they just shrugged and said they were prepared for it, or… what. Fortunately not many people knew about the bond, or they’d have come under even more scrutiny!
You also reminded me of something… I wonder if RJ had finished the book, and did his usual changes and revisions, if he’d have decided to have Moiraine be the one to see Rand leave. As Leigh pointed out, it would make a sweet symmetry, although I rather liked the effect of Cadsuane seeing him go and just… nodding. (“Yup, there he is. Okay, bye.”) I’m betting that surprised a lot of folks, that she’d notice and just not really care. Moiraine doing the same wouldn’t have been such a twist… but it still would have been pretty.
FWIW, I’m glad he didn’t stick Moiraine with the Amyrlin job. It would mess up her plans with Thom, for one thing, and it just doesn’t fit who she is. It doesn’t fit who Cadsuane is, either, but it doesn’t fit in a much more suitable and hilarious way.
JonathanLevy @20 – Glad you stopped by. I’ve missed your presence here the last while! Hope all is well with you.
toryx @25 – Yes. All of that. Well said.
@many – Personally, I’d bet that if RJ had lived to finish the series, we’d have three or four books after Knife of Dreams and still be waiting for the last one… ;) Which would be okay, too, but it’s pretty okay this way, IMO.
ssherris @31 – I’d be much more disappointed in Rand’s character re: “he *loves* the “Three” so much” if he didn’t know perfectly well that they could feel him through the bond. He knows that they know he’s alive, and they all know that when things settle down they will meet again – but for now, his presence could only complicate all sorts of issues for everyone. I won’t say it’s quite as sure for the other characters to know about his survival, but I don’t think any of the three is a match for Nynaeve, so she’ll learn, and at some point when the spotlight is gone, I think she’ll make sure that Tam and Perrin know. Less sure about Mat, with him going off to Seanchan and all, but at least Nynaeve, Tam and Perrin will know. IMO.
James Spangler @31 – Yes, but it was a good wall of text. (In other words, I agree.)
decgem @56 – This. Excellent analysis of Moiraine’s story-ending. It is suitable to her as a person – forget the Aes Sedai leadership, let her lay down the burden and be done with it.
Greyshade @60 – “macsteresque” – Love it!
Duffy12 @67 – “So to my understanding…this entire epilogue is Robert Jordan’s writing without exception. With not a note from anybody else? Correct?” – Not quite. Brandon added in a couple of bits. IIRC, he put in Perrin’s scene, and inserted Cadsuane’s “fate” (from the notes) into the epilogue. He also wrote most of the Loial bits to connect stuff. Something like that, anyway.
blahg @73 – Nobody on Team Jordan thought that RJ would have considered the “strictly RJ” passages as finished – but they were at least “original RJ” and (not knowing just what he might have done with them) they didn’t rework those passages if it didn’t seem necessary. The epilogue is probably the only complete exception to that, because it was pretty clear that he wanted it this way. He might have reworked the wording a little, but not the content.
Finally, let me echo many others in expressing my thanks not only to Leigh for all her hard work, but to all the commenters who made this such a great community – even when we disagreed mightily! It’s been great.
74. Wetlandernw-
“Not quite. Brandon added in a couple of bits. IIRC, he put in Perrin’s
scene, and inserted Cadsuane’s “fate” (from the notes) into the
epilogue. He also wrote most of the Loial bits to connect stuff.
Something like that, anyway.”
Thank you.
Nynaeve’s ‘Out with it’ to Aviendha was the only RJ that I was really sure of.
@73 blahg
I don’t really see any reason to doubt team Jordan when they say this is the ending Jordan wrote for us. Jordan himself was saying in interviews as early as 1994 that he already knew how the series would end and that it would tie up the major plotlines but leave a number of minor plotlines open. Seems like we got exactly the ending he intended.
Moiraine definitely was missed after she returned. What did she contribute without which Rand would’ve lost? The Callandor info? Rand’s lost wallet and keys?
Yeah, I know: there was Too Much Stuff To Resolve. Saw that coming several books ago.
Related: are there Prophecies not fulfilled? Where is the WoT-FAQ now….
For some reason, now that we’ve come to the end, I’m reminded of what Andere said to Lan in Tarwin’s Gap, way back in Chapter 6 of AMoL; that would be right before the Rohirrim – er, excuse me, the other Borderlander armies – came riding to their rescue:
“We’ve already moved the mountain, Lan. Let’s budge the bloody feather and be through with it.”
No, that’s not snark. It’s been a long, strange and occasionally frustrating trip; a journey that we’d despaired of ever finishing…and nonetheless here we are, at the end, thanks to a truly heroic effort by Team Jordan to finish what the master started.
And it was glorious.
As for what might come after…Well, barring a change of heart from Team Jordan, I suppose that’s what fanfic is for…
Duffy12 @@@@@ 67:
Goodness, so I did! Terrible oversight. I shall fix it next week. Thanks!
Fantastic finish, Leigh. Your summary sparked this thought:
Nakomi = Creator’s wife = Harriett (in an excellent cameo appearance!)
Just…thank you, Leigh!
And everyone else commenting here and in the FB group.
You altered the course of my life and enriched it tremendously.
I am grateful (which is a totally inadequate adjective) to have met many of you in-person and shared cookies in the bunker.
I am satisfied with the ending.
It may be over, but Leigh is still our commander. Heh.
RobM^2 @many
It was Kate Nepveu. And I didn’t cheat, but you kinda gave it away at one point. Or maybe I’m wrong…checking. And now I know.
The thing that miffed me about Nakomi was her complete and utter superfluous appearance. She was even less necessary than all those “fan appearances” with their not-WoT names, popping up where we could have had one-note background characters previously introduced like the guy who gave Mat & Rand a ride, and then had the apple scene in ToM. This appearance in Shayol Ghul does not appear to have been necessary, as just about any one of the bajillion people hanging around the Pit of Doom could have helped Rand out, or he could have made it on his own, whatever.
The worst thing of all though, was her appearance with Aviendha. I can’t see the point of that at ALL, because it was plain that her agenda was to get Aviendha to realize that the Aiel needed a new purpose, now that Rand has exposed the truth of their history and undone their self-image. That might seem important, except for the fact that Aviendha herself already came to those conclusions, without any mysterious character dragging her laboriously through the whole chain of logic. Go back to the Fires of Heaven, when the tower falls during the battle at Cairhien, and Rand awakes to hear Aviendha talking to him while washing his face. She says everything that Nakomi made her say, way back when no more than halfway through her apprenticeship! Until I figured out their thought process (between ToM & aMoL), I always felt the Aiel were kind of stupid, and this would have seemed to confirm it – the process of beng trained to be a Wise One rolls back your intellectual development. There were other things, like the parade of morons the Wonderboys encountered who were searching for He Who Comes With the Dawn. Despite Aiel being all “Oh noes! A river!” Gaul & his buddy crossed the two largest known rivers in the world in their search, only to run into Perrin, who flat out tells him Rand is going to Tear, and Gaul is like “Oh THAT’S why the prophecies all mention the fall of the Stone, it makes so much sense now, too bad I just put the largest rivers in the world between me and that place in the Prophecies.” And he’s something of an intellectual among the Aiel, according to various Wise Ones who know of him. I guess the less clever Aielmen would not have even made that belated connection. Of course, he was not nearly as moronic as the three Maidens they met in Stedding Tsofu, who immediately drew down on them all, violating the peace of the stedding, and doing all sorts of honor-losing crap, all while ignoring a wetlander with Aiel blood. You know, the only such man in the entire world, whom they had been sent out of the Three Fold Land to find?!? Those Maidens are a textbook example against women in the military – send them out on an urgent mission with the salvation of their entire people at stake, and they get distracted and go shopping. Sorilea later bemoans that Rand doesn’t love the Aiel and only sees them as expendable weapons, but maybe that’s because his very first encounter with “his” people was three of them trying to murder him and his friends during a truce for absolutely no good reason other than racial prejudice. And the three Maidens obviously realized Rand was Aiel, because of their disgust for his sword, when he was one of about 20 guys carrying one. Plainly they were upset about him, and only him, to the degree that even Mat, king of the “I wonder what that was about” moment noticed. So what thought process went through their minds? Did they at ANY point make the connection between the rather unique person they were supposed to be looking for, and the man they not only noticed, but commented on his fitting that description?
The books are full of their idocy, like beating up Rand for not taking them on the Seanchan campaign, despite the letter of his promise being “Far Dareis Mai will have as many as any other (society)”. Plainly that promise was not just casual wording, because throughout the next book, he was very particular about not letting there be more Aiel men in his entourage than Maidens. Since he took zero men to Illian and then Altara, the promise was kept. Also, everone he DID take was an enemy, specifically because he wanted people he did NOT trust to soak up the casualties, and he was thinking rather contemptuous thoughts about the wetlanders who failed to notice that much. So leaving them behind was a compliment. AND there was the detail that Tairens and Cairhienin could not trust each other enough to cooperate on anything (in this case, plotting against Rand), UNLESS there were Aiel present, in which case, they suddenly became BFF. So taking Aiel would have completely undone the whole point of his TO&E.
Anyway, to return from a digression I’ve been holding in for nearly 20 years, Nakomi bothered me more than any of the other discordant bits in the Epilogue, including Rand being an asshole and bailing on his father and kids and the woman who thinks her original mission to protect 4 dumb teenagers is a 50% failure. I mean, it’s fairly safe to assume he’s going to pop back in at some point on the rest of them, although maybe he should avoid Loial at least until the book goes to press (and from the final epigraph, he apparently does).
As for the body switch, I’m surprised it caught anyone by surprise, at least among the WoT internet community. We pretty much took it for granted over on wotmania.com & readandfindout.com. Aviendha’s future trial vision of a dark-haired daughter, who inherited that hair from her wetlander father pretty much confirmed it. Rand’s wetlander mother, and the sole wetlander ancestor of that kid, was the blonde Tigraine. So where would the dark haired genes come from, unless Rand knocked up Aviendha in a dark-haired body. Even before we knew about the superchannelers, the consensus was that this was the “something odd” about Aviendha’s quadruplets – that they were the children of Rand and Aviendha, but not the genetic offspring of the man present when Min had the viewing.
Anyway, was fun. Good job, Leigh.
Sure, I’ll go with that Matrix theory. Good enough for me.
Nakomi is totally Egwene Reborn. Her Flame of Tar Valon is the opposite of balefire, so instead of burning out her thread it gave her a second thread in the Pattern beginning decades ago. She’s been living amongst the Jenn Aiel all this time, waiting until this day. Dreamwalker, but can’t channel.
Wow, that was 5 years indeed. It was pretty awesome.
Now to do the re-read re-read wherein Leigh Butler reads, reflects and comments on the re-read of the Wheel of time. :)
my theory on Rand and the pipe lighting is that he is now fused with the real world and the world of dreams from his confrontation with the DO.
Having reached through the Lace and outside of Time to capture the DO and pull him into the web to imprison him Rand has become like a new york hot dog. he is one with everything.
without his ability to channel however he may have a regular person life span now. Not the hundreds of years that channelers tend to have.
Well, those that don’t get killed along the way.
This normal life span is a benifit for Min as she and Rand may live around the same length of time.
To me this indicates that Min may be the one to follow after Rand first.
Elayne has two kingdoms to rebuild and Avi has all of the Aiel to rebuild.
Min just has to avoid Fortuna, may she live for a bit longer since she may be more reasonable than the next one who covets the throne.
Almost at the end now sigh. Great job Leigh. I came to this thing pretty late but had a blast going back and reading the earlier entries. It was always interesting to see what stuck out for me in the books vs you and the rest of the readers. At times I almost felt like I wasn’t a true fan for never caring where Demandred was or who killed Asmodean. Guess I have no imagination. Anyway onto thoughts.
So the series begins with Ishmael witnessing The Dragon immolate himself. Fast forward 3000 years and how does it end? With The Dragon, in Ishmaels body, witnessing Ishmael, in the Dragons body, being cremated. Nice little way to have it end as it began but also be so very different.
Perrin and Mat: what the hell Mat?! Perrin immediantly goes to check on Rand, comforts Nynaeve, sends for the three, and then searches for his probably dead wife. On the other hand Mat goes and arranges fireworks for Tuon. I mean seriously he’s always been a little self centered but you’d think Rand would at least rate a thought.
On Perrin and Faile: Totally fine with Perrin saving her. We’ve had some deaths and sadness and Perrin’s already lost his entire family. Let the guy have a happy ending. He’s kind of earnt it.
On Morraine: The series actually went on longer without her then with her so not really too bothered that she wasn’t front and center at the end or in the last book in general. I think in some ways her not having much to do highlighted how much everyone else had grown through out the series.
On Cadsuane: Again didn’t really want Morraine to do more so don’t have a problem with Cads being the one to realize Rand is alive. Her description of walking into an ambush always makes me laugh.
On Nakomi and the pipe: From an answer Jordan gave years ago to a fan
Ha! Turns out Jordan just likes being a dick.
Nynaeves “I only came along to protect you” and Tams “You did well. My boy…you did so well” are such bittersweet lines it’s hard not to feel sad even though Rand at least is still alive. I like to think somewhere down the line Rand reveals himself to both of them and there’s tears of joy instead.
Oh Moghedien. From the ultimate survivor to the ultimate fail in less then a page. Shakes head.
So is Alivia planning to burn down the tent and say she destroyed Morridins body or something? Otherwise people might have a slight problem with a Forsaken up and leaving.
On Rand: If anyone has ever deserved to ride off into the sunset it’s Rand. I know some people think it’s cruel to leave without telling anyone, and maybe it is, but after carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders for two plus years I can understand Rand needing some me time.
Finally, I really liked the ending. While a part of me will always want to know what happened to every single minor character, I think that a long drawn out ending would have diluted the emotional impact we got from a shorter more compact one. I do think it’s funny that a series known for being lengthy, sometimes overly so, has such succinct ending. Very grateful for Team Jordan and Sandereson for finishing off what Jordan begun. Certainly the final three books are some of my favourites. Love the final few lines.
Never in my life have I invested anywhere near the time, money and emotional energy in any personal interest that I have in the Wheel of Time. Buying the books and waiting years between releases was the smallest part of it.
I remember enjoying RJ’s blog go up on Dragonmount in 2005, I followed along as he chronicaled his own illness and his family informing us of his tragic passing… I’ve been to signings and even several JordanCons, and I’ve have the priviledge of meeting so many wonderful people.
Thank you Leigh for investing so much of your own time with this excellent Reread. And thank you to all of my fellow commentors for sharing your own special sauce of crazy.
I will have more to say later on after I collect my thoughts a bit but for now…
Thanks Leigh. Adari tia Cosathisand
Tears are for after, they just waste time before…
Wow. I can’t believe this day has come. As I read the final words of the book before scrolling into Leigh’s post, I thought to myself, this is it. This is the last time I’ll be re-reading a chapter of The Wheel of Time before going to see what Leigh and the commenters have to say. This has been such a major part of my life for the past 5 years, through job changes, a new marriage, losing and gaining pets, and family members. What will I do on Tuesdays now? Thank you, Leigh, for your dedication. Thank you Team Jordan for your gift.
As for the content, while it isn’t without flaws, I still can’t read it without finding it… fitting. Maybe in a few years after I’ve re-read it a couple more times, I’ll be able to nit-pick it better.
Thanks Leigh for the Reread! The early ones helped me remember what had transpired up to TOM, and then Rereading and re-living TOM and AMOL was a lot of fun and very enjoyable.
Cheers,
Jim
And I get one more chance to say a lot, this time about the ending. :P
I have to smirk a bit at the epilogue title–not only is it amusing because we never do learn what the answer is (whether you mean to all of Rand’s Finn questions, to the fates of specific characters and plots, or to the points Jordan deliberately wanted left hanging), but it seems like an affectionately snarky jab at all of us who were always so determined to get everything explained and know things Jordan never intended us to know. So it’s both “What answer?” and “There’s an answer but I’m not going to tell it to you/tell all of it.”
The reappearance of Nakomi was another one of those “gotcha”s, since it only seemed to make her identity and nature even more mysterious while underscoring for us that we were never going to know the full story. But at least it did show to us she wasn’t completely a one-scene wonder, and I like that the other person who spoke to her was also Aiel (well, half), particularly with him being Lews Therin whom the Da’shain Aiel served.
Loved Mat’s bit with the sun. And having him reject a gamble, and the dice stop rolling for the last time, was a great parallel and ending.
Nice detail with the Aiel wanting to celebrate with Perrin because he’s a blacksmith (at least that’s how I interpreted it, that him being one and their respect for blacksmiths was why they called out to him). Not to mention that if they know anything about his abilities, they’d know he can literally “wake from the dream”!
I have to agree completely about Moiraine. While I don’t think she should have been Amyrlin, and in fact I think her fate of getting to just be an ordinary Aes Sedai (well as ordinary as one of her legendary status can be) and travel with Thom is quite appropriate, I do think she should have been used more and should have been the one to see him leave (though I can see the reasoning given for why not doing so also works for her character arc). One thing I will say though: while we don’t see her grieving for Rand per se, the bit where she stroked his cheek and said he did well really stabbed at my heart, seeing as it was a call back to her letter in TFoH that so made Rand cry. Beautifully done.
On a related note, while Nynaeve and Perrin crying about Egwene and Rand was handled well, I agree there should have been more grieving overall for those we lost. This is one of the few criticisms brought up about AMoL that I will agree with–during the battles it was justified that people would have to get over things quickly, shove their emotions aside to be dealt with later when everything was over. But now it is over, and yet the emotional ramifications weren’t dealt with much at all. I’m not sure if that’s because this was written by Jordan, he hadn’t gotten to embellish and edit it, and the team decided it be left as is; if for some reason Jordan didn’t think it necessary or wasn’t able to write it (disproven by the emotional scenes throughout the series, like the Rand-Moiraine one I mentioned, or Perrin and his family’s death); if Sanderson couldn’t write it convincingly (not having read his other work I don’t know if he is good at such things, but I somehow doubt he can’t write it); or if the book was just getting so long they decided to cut it. But regardless…it is a flaw, and one I actually noticed as rather glaring. But, I like to think there was a lot more genuine grieving which happened off-screen and leave it at that.
The prophecy about the man dying in a narrow bed…I had actually addressed it and given my own theories before. One I mentioned back in TGS was that it was metaphorical, referring to Rand’s true self not dying while he was becoming Darth Rand, but having it turn out to be his actual self was more fitting and direct. That the joy and sadness would turn out to be because of winning the Last Battle and Moridin dying but also Rand dying was a nice twist, one I should have foreseen due to the link–but other than when I thought Moridin might have been the one to have the “memory of Light”, I never thought he would still be around after the Last Battle. Though short of the link being severed, there was no way he could have died without Rand dying too. Thus the resolution, and how it also resolved the “to live you must die” question, was very well done.
And it made perfect sense to me that the link would be responsible–it’s very clear the bond has something to do with souls, there was Min’s vision of the two men touching and merging, and the link itself was created by having One Power and True Power collide–i.e., the power of both the Creator and the Dark One, creation and destruction, equal and opposite like saidin and saidar. With all this balancing going on, and with the two of them already feeling each other, hearing their thoughts, being drawn together in TAR, affecting one another, it made sense they could eventually switch bodies–I think someone even theorized at one time Moridin might deliberately try such a thing as a way to win. With both the One and True Powers to draw upon to make it happen…
Loial’s scene was hilarious, especially the bit about the calendar (I guess the time dilation really did throw everything off, and that after the Bore was sealed all times came together again) and his final thought. Though I did have to mention the bit with Ituralde was interesting since it not only revealed what happened to him, it had Alsalam killed off. At first I was like “Why bother having him turn up alive in ToM if he’s just going to die now?” but then I remembered that not having killed Alsalam when he balefired Natrin’s Barrow was very important to Rand. So it was included as part of his continued atonement and recovery of his inner goodness, not because Alsalam specifically needed to be kept alive.
I’m not surprised Mat went back to the Seanchan; even without the knowledge of the outriggers, we know he loves Tuon, he’ll always want more adventure even if he doesn’t want to be a hero, and of course there’s the matter of changing the Seanchan and doing something about the damane. The bit with the pregnancy had me laughing because for once I saw it as Tuon genuinely joking–not that I doubt for a moment the Empress could have her consort killed once he’d fathered the heir, but because I know she loves him whatever her denials to the contrary, she clearly only said that to toy with him. And that last line from Mat was perfect too. It does make me think he hasn’t lost his luck–the dice-rolling phenomenon may be gone with his ta’veren-hood, but since Rand still has power, Perrin is still a wolfbrother, and I doubt Mat has lost his memories, something must remain. And it’s been pointed out numerous times that Mat was always lucky, even before Shadar Logoth. He’s going to need it in Seanchan, I’ll say.
The scene with Moghedien…while I admit having one Forsaken live and escape would have made for an interesting future plot, especially if Nynaeve got involved, or the Black Tower and Red Ajah, I had to laugh and laugh at the deliciousness of her fate, all things considered. While it still feels wrong to say anyone (even Elaida) deserves this, I have to enjoy some schadenfreude on Moggy’s behalf. And it isn’t like there aren’t other Black Ajah and Dreadlords out there to track down.
As far as the three’s acting abilities go…while it’s true Elayne for sure has deaths she can think of and draw to mind to inspire her grief (Min doesn’t, except Siuan, and while Aviendha has lost people, Aiel aren’t about showing grief), I expect the explanation they gave or which others reached was that indeed they had prepared for such a denouement a long time ago, since it was always prophesied Rand would die at the Last Battle. They all denied it or fought against it, but with the fact of it seemingly happening in front of them, there’d be a sense of inevitability about it all that could indeed result in a fatalistic woodenness. And of course people handle grief in different ways. Nynaeve, I am sure, will eventually pry the truth out of one of them, and she’ll tell Tam and Perrin at the very least. It’s not like they wouldn’t understand the value of secrecy, or want Rand to have the life of peace and calm he always wanted.
The bit with the Rhuidean vision is a good way of underscoring what people had hoped all along, that even before Rhuarc’s death, the change in the Dragon’s Peace and the Aiel’s role in it would change the future. While we can’t know for sure it will (Bair’s response is ambiguous, it seems to suggest she saw the vision after the changes Aviendha made), there’s definitely a good chance the Aiel and their culture will survive, albeit in a new form and role. (So either the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant because they’ll be the only ones to live even close to the old Aiel ways, back in the Waste, or a lot more Aiel died in the Last Battle than we know.)
Perrin’s last scene: it would have been a nice grace note if when he recalled the place where he met Elyas, he also remembered that Egwene had been there with him. I know it would have distracted from his grief over Faile, but it would also have allowed for a bit more grieving for Egwene, someone else he hadn’t saved. I do have to agree that after all this time of worrying about her (and after having to actually rescue her in Malden) to have Faile just show up now on her own, fine and well, would have been a nice twist. But I also like the idea of him getting to save her one last time (since I highly doubt she’ll ever need rescuing again and will let him know that in no uncertain terms), and that embrace and smile had me tearing up a bit.
Speaking of crying, the farewell to Birgitte was quite poignant, joy and sadness mingled. That she gets to be reborn and be with Gaidal again is wonderful, and fulfills Min’s visions of her (even if not as accurately as it should have). And having her send Olver off to dump the Horn in the ocean, and Elayne being glad she did it and took the decision out of her hands, was perfect. (This rings a sort of bell for me though, that someone in another fantasy series had a similar reaction in such a situation. I thought it was the Bhelliom in Eddings, but it seems it wasn’t. Anyone remember what I’m talking about?) Indeed, let’s hope Olver is better at it than Domon and Egeanin…
The scene with Tam really turned on the waterworks, even though I was sure Rand wasn’t dead. Seeing him and Moiraine together was even more moving. As for the three, I suspect the reason the bond had to exist, aside from letting them all feel each other/communicate and giving Rand the triple-Warder strength, was for this moment. Whether the bond is part of what drew him back from the brink, it certainly let them know he wasn’t actually dying, thus letting them face the prospect without breaking down completely and instead focus on letting him have the peace he needed by helping the rest of the world think he really was dead.
That Nynaeve didn’t get to raise him from the dead is no great loss for me; I am pretty sure Jordan threw that in just to be another Messiah reference, not because he ever intended it to really happen–just another example, in this case, of rumor and gossip creating legends that never happened, which would be passed down and garbled throughout the years until the tale becomes that the Messiah did die and come back after three days. (Or maybe it’s three days later that the truth of Rand not dying is passed on to those who need to know? LOL!) In any event it seems clear from the notes that Jordan didn’t write anything about that in AMoL, so any “failure” of this foreshadowing not coming to pass should be on his head, not Sanderson’s.
The single saa in Rand/Moridin’s eye looking like the Dragon’s Fang: nice. It resonates with both the stained glass window in the White Tower that Egwene saw in TAR and Min’s vision of Rand in Bandar Eban in ToM, of the fang becoming a symbol of hope. (It also ties into what Logain’s glory of men turned out to be.) And I love the resolution of Min’s vision of Alivia–once again things were not what the readers were expecting/wanting, with Jordan again enjoying pulling the rug out from under us. Although of course people had theorized the dying wouldn’t be literal, or that it would have something to do with how he would die and yet live, no one guessed it would be like this.
The only question I have about the matter is how and when Rand was able to give these instructions to Alivia. Did he wake up at some point before awakening in Moridin’s body? Was she there by the Pit of Doom or at Merrilor when he first passed out/woke up again? Had he instructed her at some point before going to Shayol Ghul, on the off-chance he did survive his encounter with the Dark One? I am guessing the latter though that seems a bit optimistic for someone who had been so convinced he’d die even after he re-integrated.
Side note: Moridin being cremated with full honors as the Dragon Reborn is so ironic, considering how he’d been his friend once and now wanted so badly to fall into oblivion and never be reborn. The only way it would be more fitting is if it had been Demandred in the body.
While I do think Moiraine should have been the one to see Rand go, I agree that the idea of Cadsuane knowing he was out there but not being able to do anything about it is delicious. At the same time she did come to care for Rand in her fashion, so I think she’d be happy knowing he was safe and well. And of course her getting to be Amyrlin was absolutely hilarious. I’m pretty certain she’ll ensure the ending of the Oaths in short order, and also that she will follow through on Egwene’s final wishes regarding the Aiel, Kin, and Sea Folk. (You can also be certain she’ll be using Verin’s book to direct hunts for the remaining Black Ajah and Dreadlords. Considering she’d been doing the work of the Reds for years, she may even be the one to set the Red Ajah and the Black Tower to their new task.)
And as I said above, I can’t see Moiraine being Amyrlin, the ‘foreshadowing’ in NS notwithstanding–she has Thom, she has fulfilled the oath she and Siuan swore to Tamra and each other, and now she can have a life of travel and a lot less stress and responsibility. If she does know about Rand, or figures it out, or is told later, she’ll agree he deserves the same peace and contentment.
I think while it would have been interesting knowing the fate of particular Aes Sedai, just knowing Moiraine gets to be with Thom and Cadsuane will be Amyrlin, and the likely changes she’ll be making in the Tower, is enough. And aside from everyone pointing out the Sharans killed Romanda, Sarene was last seen being burned out by Graendal and possibly dying. (If she didn’t though, I wonder if self-Compelled Graendal could restore her mind? Though then she’d still need to find a reason to live, like her Warder, once she realized she’d lost the Power.)
As for Rand’s final scene, I remember being very puzzled by his seemingly inexplicable ability to change reality. But in retrospect it really does make sense, on so many levels. He spent so much time outside the Pattern, not only manipulating reality but viewing it and coming to understand it…he specifically came to understand the true nature of the Pattern and the Dark One…and of course he was not only in TAR for a good part of that battle (what with the worlds converging at Shayol Ghul), he literally used all three Powers to reforge the Dark One’s prison. Having that kind of power, and that sort of understanding of the nature of reality, would have to leave its mark on him. Though I do like the idea Nakomi had something to do with it too, perhaps quickened it to life or guided it into such a path.
I never saw what happened with the girls as flippant–he knew very well they’d be able to tell he was alive and where he was as soon as he still felt them through the bond, so he knew they’d come after him eventually; from there it wouldn’t be hard to guess he’d go back and not only visit them, but be there for his children (he has to for certain if he’s to give any to Aviendha and Min); and of course if Nynaeve didn’t tell them, he’d be sure to let at least his father and Perrin know too. And getting to travel the world and see places and people he never had…and getting to see ones he already knew, but anonymously, without the pressure and responsibility and fear he received there as Rand, is a wonderful ending for him. After all he went through, Rand truly deserves it, and it made me cry, again, to see it. I still believe in happy endings, they just have to be earned in my stories, and the ones I read and enjoy. And Rand’s certainly was.
I had been hoping the ending would be a variation on the opening wind text…that it was was somehow surpassed for me by the exact phrasing. And having that lead into the prophecy about the Dragon bringing back life and hope was another wonderful full circle bit. The final line from Loial was so beautiful in and of itself, but knowing it had been applied to Jordan himself choked me up. I have to assume the line was written by him about Rand and then later applied to Jordan, rather than the reverse, but either way it was a fitting tribute.
There are things I would change, about the series and AMoL in particular, but none of it is enough to ruin the series for me or not want to reread it. And I feel good still recommending it to others. Nothing is perfect, and the virtues outshine the flaws for me. I’m glad to have read it all, I feel it really is a profound piece of work that will affect fantasy writing for years to come (including, yes, in what not to do at times), and I was even more glad to have found Leigh’s re-read, enjoying her humor, her insight, her beautiful writing, the connections she drew and the rhetoric she used…while I didn’t always agree with her (though I think agreed with her more often than most people who make this statement do), I always loved how she said it and looked forward to every week. The only thing I regret is the lack of deep analysis in the earlier books when she was rushing the re-read so as to complete it before what she thought would be Jordan publishing the last (and single) volume. I doubt what she’ll be doing for Tor will involve going back and re-reading those early books, but I can do that myself.
It’s been a joy being here even with the…conflicts I sometimes witnessed (or was part of), and there have been so many points raised, meanings teased out, knowledge shared to place things in context, and connections made which I otherwise never would have thought of. I’m glad you all put up with my walls of text and I hope they provided at least some insights and thoughts to entertain you and make you think.
@10 tamyrlink: Agreed on just about everything. As for the Wise Ones, initially the Aiel intended to all be at Shayol Ghul. While Elayne intervened there, I think they still mostly ended up there, and the ones who didn’t probably died either at the Gap or in Kandor when the Sharans came. But anyway, a lot of Aiel were mentioned at Shayol Ghul (it’s where we see Amys, Sorilea, and Bair, anyway, as well as Aviendha), so I suspect a lot of the Wise Ones were there.
@13 Andrew: Oh yes, I’m sure Moiraine will ferret it out.
@22 MikeyRocks: While I agree about Moiraine, I don’t think you can blame Sanderson for this. He was going by Jordan’s notes, and also what Team Jordan told him. If they said Moiraine was not to have any other roles or be used in any other ways, then she couldn’t be. He was allowed to make some changes, or add things to the story, but not too much, and Moiraine’s role was most certainly something Jordan spelled out and that Harriet and the others wanted preserved.
@25 toryx: Well said.
@31 James Spangler: Agreed on Mat. (All of it, really, but I wanted to single that part out.)
@32 Tophere, 34 Blocksmith: Interesting, I like both of these theories.
@36 Isilel: Sanderson didn’t say Hawkwing would be “okay” with the Seanchan, just that he might not be as against them as we think/want him to be. There’s still plenty of room there for him to disapprove of other things about them and their culture, and thus give Tuon some remonstrances. It just means that the real work of changing Tuon will come from Mat and Min, as it should be. As for Moridin, I don’t think anyone knows he lived except Cadsuane, the three, and Nynaeve (and, I suppose, Flinn), and all of those people know or will likely soon be told that he’s actually Rand. If one of them tells Flinn or anyone else that Moridin has no Power (or even claims he has amnesia or something) that will take care of any pursuit or attempts at obtaining justice.
@39 The Bastard Uncle: Agreed.
@47 torkel: Very interesting possibility. For what it’s worth, in Moghedien’s scene in the prologue she noted that Moridin had slain Lanfear, then placed her soul in a new body. This implies the Dark One can’t do body-switches on the living, only on the dead, which further suggests that what happened to Rand is a power of the Creator–whether from Nakomi or Rand’s own new power after using all three to seal the Bore. Or as I said above, it may come from combining the One and True Powers, as Rand did.
@48 Phigment: LOL! A fun possibility.
@52 Tektonica: Makes sense. I seem to recall Jordan saying before that the Power is a thing of the soul, not the body (to explain why both Osan’gar and Aran’gar could still channel, and why the latter channeled saidin); the Warder bond is a thing of the Power, ergo…
Also your view of what happens after the series ends matches mine.
@56 decgem: Beautiful, so very well said, I agree wholeheartedly.
@58 konigr: I think the “three days dead” thing, as I said above, was just a gotcha on Jordan’s part, making us think it would happen and referencing the Messiah, just so he could surprise us with it not happening (and having Nynaeve’s determination and the rumors eventually morph into the legends/myths we have today). As far as the boat goes, maybe that really will happen in the future, when Rand dies for real and the three of them have him ferried to Tar Valon…maybe to be buried alongside Egwene?
I like your understanding of Rand’s special power and where he got it from.
@60 Greyshade: *smirks and snorts* Thanks. And as far as your post goes, I’ll just say I agree and disagree with different parts of it (I leave it up to you to guess which is which), but I will agree with the “too many battles/not enough reflection” dichotomy of AMoL. (And BTW there were two gay characters: Baldhere and Emarin.)
@62 DayTripper: Good point.
@67 Duffy: I can totally see Tuon being badass enough to still travel while pregnant (after all it’ll be not until, what, six months before she can’t move around as much?). Not to mention the traveling could also happen after she has the baby, assuming she can find someone she actually trusts to guard her child while she’s gone (Min, Karede, and Tylee come to mind). I do like your idea about Faile’s pregnancy though.
As for how she made it back, in the scene where Faile and the others were interrogated by the Dreadlords and Aravine was revealed as a Darkfriend, their group had been heading for the Town in the Blasted Lands, and they all lined up to go through a gateway from there to a supply camp near the Heights at Merrilor. It was after they went through the gate that Aravine was killed, and Olver and Faile both tried to get the Horn to Mat (they both could see and were aiming for the Heights). So they were already near Merrilor when Faile led the Trollocs off and ended up buried and wounded like that.
@70 tamyrlink: Hah!
@74 Wetlander: Hmmm…Sanderson told us that the two big mysteries at the end of the book were ones he could not and would not explain for us, respectively. For you to know things about Nakomi (and for Sanderson to say she was never intended to generate such curiosity) implies she is the thing he won’t explain (because he created her) and the pipe is the thing he can’t explain (because Jordan wrote that part and didn’t leave an explanation). But now this will maddeningly bother me forever, gah…
@77 sps: Apparently you forget (or are discounting) how she prevented the meeting at Merrilor from severing the Light’s forces, and how she changed the Dragon’s Peace. The latter was necessary to ensure the Aiel’s future would change, but also if she hadn’t resolved this situation, Rand and Egwene could not have come to terms (which would have made him giving up the seals to be broken later, and the deployment of the different forces under Elayne and later Mat, impossible), and he would have still been trying to lead everyone himself instead of appointing someone else. That’s all pretty important.
@80 Mikeinphoenix: Oh that’s a beautiful thought. I love it.
@82 Bill: Wow, that was something real special there. I can see why you held it in all this time. While you had some points, don’t you think you could have phrased things in ways less designed to be controversial and inflammatory?
@83 spacechampion: Hah! Don’t know if that’s even possible, but it’s a fun theory.
@85 Evermore: Oh that is a wonderful observation about the book ends for the series. Jordan had to have planned that. Also, interesting point regarding Moiraine. And LOL, good point about the long series having a short ending.
Well done, Leigh. Your rereads have been a pleasure. And now I’m tearing up about the AMOL ending all over again. Tam! Tam!
Long time lurker here. I’ve been reading the re-read ever since it started and now that we are at the end, I would like to thank you Leigh for how you’ve made the WoT series even better for me. Cheers!
Thank you so much for all your hard work on these posts – I came a bit late to the party, but have enjoyed it very much nonetheless.
Leigh, thanks so much for your epic effort.
I liked your humour and insight. But what are you going to do next?
The book ending with the same quotation as it started (the one with the sword of justice), was a nice touch.
RobMRobM @42:
The PARASHA comment is a reference to the old rasfwr-j usenet group.
To quote the (very very old) group FAQ:
Karl-Johan Noren (who made that comment) and several other commentors on that first introductory post were all old time regulars on rasfwr-j (including Kate Nepveu and Leigh herself, of course).
@@@@@ Leigh
re: Rand’s impossible Matrix pipe
That was pretty much my first thought when I read that part.
re: Schrödinger’s unmentioned characters
If I’m not mistaken, Word of Brandon is that we can consider any character who wasn’t specifically mentioned as dead or alive to have survived the Last Battle.
re: Tam at the funeral
That little scene kills me.
And goddammit, in my very own “WoT after WoT” Rand clues in all of his closest friends and relatives, starting with Tam super pronto. Because otherwise I’d have to reach through the pages and punch him in the nuts.
@@@@@58 königr
re: Mat’s luck
I hope that Mat still has his luck, even if he is no longer ta’veren.
I happened to have a fellow re-reader ask that question at a signing and Brandon’s answer was that he considers Mat’s luck a “soul attribute” that was intensified by his being ta’veren. So now, fully de-ta’veren-ized, he’ll still be unusually lucky but no longer 100% fool-proof lucky.
@@@@@85 Evermore
So is Alivia planning to burn down the tent and say she destroyed Morridins body or something? Otherwise people might have a slight problem with a Forsaken up and leaving.
I don’t think anyone beside the Forsaken, Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine know who Moridin even is/was. So the only ones who would have to be clued in are Nynaeve and Moiraine, who I consider to be scheduled for a meeting with a clue-by-four anyway (see above)
Nice observation about the burning bookends, by the way.
Couple of random thoughts sparked by comments: (1) If the Horn is going to lie forever in an ocean trench, does this mean the Heros can never be summoned to fight for the Right? Don’t quite understand why that is a good thing. (2) All the Forsaken seem to be accounted for, and the DO’s being sealed away ensures, I suppose, that they can’t be given new bodies. Most are dead. Masaana is mind-muddled, Greandal is Compelled, and Moghedian is collared. I would guess the first is irreversible. The second probably is – Nynaeve’s attempt to un-compel Kerb led to his death. The third worries me a little: a’dam have a way of not staying on permanently, especially if the party receives outside help. Egwene was collared, and Moghedian was once before, but both escaped. There are still BA around who might assist Moggy. (3) So now Cadsuane gets to work with Logain in uniting (or at least reaching peaceful coexistence) the two channeling “Towers.” But the women also have channelers among the Seafolk, the Aiel, the Kin, and the damane, while the male channelers are more-or-less “united,” except perhaps for isolated individuals. Egwene’s plan to unify (or coordinate) the female channelers will almost certainly NOT be pursued by Cadsuane.
So: Lots of things to wonder about in addition to the geopolitical future with the Seanchan, Aiel, and Elayne’s possible “United Nations.”
Since I have not said it clearly before: Thanks Leigh. Your writing is lively, sophisticated, humorous, and passionate. I agree with most of (obviously not all) your stands on social issues, but enjoy your prose in any case. Hope you will remain an active blogger on some topic(s) that I find interesting. (So far, I’ve tried several times and just can’t get into ASOIAF. I have the books and may try again.)
I pretty much agree with all of the assessments Leigh made in her commentary, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Bad and ugly figuratively speaking, of course, and not much of it.
As a Moiraine fan I was very miffed at yet more sidelining of her in the end. Her role in Merillor was important and so was with Nyn supporting Rand. But the nature of these roles, especially the later, meant that she was absent or passive throughout. A little more at the end could’ve made up for it and be very symmetrical storywise. Or maybe I’m just biased, like all those Cadsuane fans will say ;)
Randalator @@@@@ 97
I agree, someone should let in Nyn and Moiraine on the Rand/Moridin body switch. Especially Moiraine, if she had a brain freeze and hadn’t already figured it out.
Otherwise Rand may find out that having Moridin’s body has one major drawback and have his new liberated existence cut very short by a gleeman’s knife or a string of balefire.
Faculty Guy (or is it Gut now :p)
Good point about the Horn. The same thought crossed my mind.
JonathanLevy,
Nice to see you pop in before the end.
Also, the hunny! Victory is mine, once more before the end! :p
Thank you Leigh and all commenters for everything. These books make me cry a lot. For the personal heroics mostly, The Golden Crane, the Making and many more chapters.
Reality is now Rand’s dream shard. Or rather, Rand’s dream shard is now reality, “Think I’ll have a smoke’
It all (WOT) left me wanting more but I’m content with what is/was.
Can we say that what we’ve just finished reading is Loial’s book?
So nice to see so many “old timers” commenting here…I’m looking at you Longtimefan and JonathanLevy! So many great comments on both Leigh and the Ending…oops…there are no endings…..
Rand is not abandoning his friends…..he’s disappearing temporarily. The Three already know he’s alive, and can find him anywhere. Nynaeve is on that case too. Cadsuane knows. Rand will choose the where and when to reappear to those he wishes to be in touch with…..Tam, Perrin, perhaps, even Mat. Rand in Moridan’s body, a Forsaken body, can’t just hang out at the funeral! He needs to get out of there!
While there are many questions I might have liked answered, I do like that many of the “future threads” have not been tied off. It allows us to imagine this world going on and on, in whatever ways satisfy each of us the most, personally. So not an ending…..
My head canon wants to say that Nakomi is really Egwene, and that her spirit fled into the dream as she was, erm, crystalizing. Not really possible, nor set up, but it would still be cool. Maybe Egwene learned to control time in Tel’aran’rhiod, after she became “one with the force” so to speak, and move through it.
It would have been cool to set that up throughout the series. That Dreamwalkers througout the Third Age would at various times meet a “spirit guide” that helped them learn and grow… and it ends up that its Egwene the whole time.
@99 ValMar
Or maybe I’m just biased, like all those Cadsuane fans will say ;)
I am not familiar with this concept.
I completely admit that, despite this momentous occasion, I have WAY TOO MUCH WORK to even consider reading all the comments before posting, so if someone else has already said any or all of this, apologies.
Point 1, on “Nakomi” as an avatar of the Creator: I strongly suspect that what has been going on all along is that the “strict nonintervention clause” element of the theology was always a very subtle fake-out. Yes, Big Voice Amp Guy at the end of EoTW said “I will take no part” in favor of Rand, but that could have been a very specific statement about Rand’s freedom to fight the Dark One (or frankly, even to fight Ishamael, at that point). It was really easy to blow it up into cosmic importance because one core theological belief that none of the characters, even Moiraine (who on the evidence of New Spring is one of the more religious people we see) is willing to entertain any kind of theology other than strict dualism. However, I think that, like many elements of the series, this was ultimately something that all the characters believed which turned out to be simply false. The Creator can and does interfere with some events (starting with bringing the boys and Loial together at the Queen’s Blessing, which Moiraine granted looked like divine action “if I didn’t know it was impossible”), meeting Aviendha and then Rand in person, etc. He just doesn’t make the final choice between destroying evil and imprisoning it: in that sense he is deistic, but in all other senses he is a normal theistic god (whether monotheist or the good one of a dualist pair is unclear) operating in a world in which EVERYONE thinks he’s just sitting on his hands. I think it’s an ingenious solution to the tough worldbuilding problem of religion in epic fiction.
Point 2, on all the fans who hated that New Rand just ran off to have the adventures he never had rather than sorting out the world: I do think that this is why the ending was untouchable. If the central point is that “the highest possible human value is autonomy”, then Rand absolutely can’t stick around and risk becoming a benevolent dictator. As the Dragon, his authority would so greatly overwhelm anyone else’s that likely even his best-intentioned plans would go horribly wrong. Thematically, the only possible ending for him is anonymity and the happy life he never had. Though I really hope he at least tells his dad.
And in this new world, the inaccessibility of the Power is really necessary for anonymity. I’d honestly be inclined to see the self-lighting pipe as a rather sweetly domestic “thank you” from the Creator, along with the new life and body, rather than evidence of larger powers. It may not be the reward we as readers would have chosen, or that BS would have chosen, but we’re not pipe tobacco enthusiasts who spent years listing pipe smoking among their favorite hobbies on endpapers.
Sentence got away from me. “One core religious belief that none of the characters is willing to entertain ANY CHALLENGE TO is strict DEISM.” More coffee. Now.
Randalator @@@@@ 104
Well, if you make it singular into a fan, then I am sure it will become familiar ;)
@107 ValMar
Nope, still +++ DOES NOT COMPUTE +++
Random comment: About a week ago, I filled in the Statistical analysis page on the wikia (the wordcounts for all the individual POVs/chapters were there already, but they hadn’t yet been added up by character), and Mat actually had more POV time than anyone else in AMOL as measured by wordcount. Maybe he got less pagetime in other people’s POVs though, I don’t know.
Randalator @@@@@ 108
Well, some may say that if one is a Cadsuane fan their place is in Wonderland…
The thing that bothers me about Rand “abandoning his responsibilities” isn’t the ruling… its the child. I can’t imagine Rand al’Thor, being raised by Tam al’Thor, would walk out on a child. Its just not who he is to me. “Just” Rand al’Thor still has responsibilities that make that kind of freedom impossible. No parent is truly autonomous. And there is nothing, nothing in 14 books full of Rand that leads me to beleive he would value autonomy more greatly than raising his own child.
Amir @96 – thanks for edifying. I was struggling trying to figure out which combination of characters could be crammed together to make up that word as a short hand. (Perrin? No, P.A.R rather than P.E.R…Asha – but that is from ASOIF. Whatever).
@111: Yes there is a bit of a disconnect in regards to his impending fatherhood.
My projected take on it is, he’s going to quietly disappear for a bit while people are rebuilding.
Then he’ll pop back to Elayne when he feels her time is near. He’ll find out about Avi and do the same for her.
But yes, I see him becoming a “traveling dad”, like modern consultants. He’s not there 100% for any of his children, but in part because it would be unsafe.
While the Dark One is locked away, I fear there are still Dark Friends.
Maybe in 5-10 years he can be more open with the children, because people will think all the ladies are ready to move on.
But I can see Tam settling in the palace and becoming Elayen’s new Captain- General and Royal Grandpa. She’s currently without a C-G and a First Prince.
Who wants to ship Tam and Dyelin?
And… darn thought escaped me.
@111 anthonypero
I don’t think there will be any abandoning of child related responsibilities, except for maybe the first couple of months regarding Elayne’s twins. As you said, that’s not the person Rand is.
All I think will happen is that he might have to sit out an appropriate “mourning period” for the Queen of Andor in case there are people in the know re: Rand+Elayne who might grow suspicious if she got touchy-feely with “Lord Guy Incognito of House Neverheardthatnamebefore” right after the Lord Dragon’s death.
I guess what I’m saying is I can understand the necessity of it, but I can’t imagine that it wouldn’t have caused him some active grief in the moment he walks away. Some reflection on that would have been nice, appropriate, and in character.
BT – did Guybon survive? He’s probably in line to take over the CG slot held by Birgitte and would deserve it on the merits. I do like the idea of Tam moving to Camelyn to help with the kids. I always shipped Tam with Morgase, but that is clearly water over the dam at this point. Dyelin could be a match or whoever serves as Elayne’s AS advisor – hoping for Leane.
AP 115 – Rand was just…a….mite….busy in the Cave. Hard to hold it against him that he didn’t get around to thinking about his future kids.
@115: He thought of them when Elayne was under direct threat of them being cut out.
@114: I agree.
@117: I think he did, and yes he would be a good candidate
Rand in the Cave was thinking about saving the world for Everyone! Not just his own children. Mankind. That’s kind of big, you know, and all encompassing. I fully believe that he would be closely involved with his children, in the future, and his “wives”, and the simple human pleasures of life.
I’ll be honest, the pregnancy and birth process for me as a dad was way different for our second child than it was for our first. I was very excited, and much more attached right off the bat once we learned we were pregnant. I was always protective and felt love (Rand freaking about his babies being cut out of Elayne), but any type of bonding/affection didn’t materialize for me until after my first started interacting with me.
Rand’s thought process didn’t surprise me in the slightest when he rode off to find a boat (prophecy fulfillment). He needs to meet and hold his kids. I didn’t have the advantage of a chemical and bodily bond with my developing child, but with our second I knew what to expect and could project my emotions based on my previous experiences.
If Rand has a kid with Min, I expect he will think a little differently.
Plus us the dude is finally pain free. That’s huge from a cloud nine perspective and decidedly influenced his mood.
Traveling-dad-Rand will have his hands full shuttling between Andor/Cairhien, the Aiel Waste, and possibly Seanchan, even if travels by gateway. He deserves a vacation after saving the world–before embarking on raising so many families.
Papa Tam. XD.
Quick poll:
How many kids have been born to the Re-Reader in the last 5 years?
Children, adopted children and grand-children all count.
Mine is 3, but I found the Re-read in February 2012 (according to my posting history). So he was already 1 before I joined.
So we can keep two totals going:
Born in last 5 years:
Born after you personally finding the Re-Read:
And are any named after WoT characters?
3 for me. One girl and two boys, in both cases. Didn’t name any after WoT, but managed to trick my wife into naming our first son Lucas ;)
Just one for my wife and I due to a miscarriage a few years back. I found the reread one week after it started.
edit: no WoT names.
@AP
You all baby bunching?
We’re done now, lol, CireNaes. Evie actually turns 5 today. Our oldest is 8.
@125
Condolences, CireNaes. We went through the same thing before our second. It was a difficult time for Jessica, and I felt pretty helpless. It sucked :(
Happy Birthday Evie!
——
@125: Sorry about your loss.
One grandchild, not named for anything WoT-ish.
ETA – not sure if he was born before or after I found the re-read 4.5 years ago, roughly same time.
Three Grandsons! No direct WOT names (but close: can Max count for Mat?)
Thanks to you both. You’re the first ones to tell me that directly. Everyone I’ve disclosed that to always asked how my wife was doing.
Three grandsons for Faculty Gu(t)y. That’s a lot of awesome right there. It always takes me about 10 days to put my kids back together after my parents get ahold of them for longer than a 12 hour period.
My 2 teenagers were both born before the re-read and before I read WoT.
@132:
Really? You can do it that fast? What’s your secret? We have discipline issues for weeks after an overnight visit, lol.
Regarding the other.. that’s unsurprising, unfortunately. Like you had said in your previous post, we don’t really have a chance to chemically bond with our children, like our wives… but watching them suffer and not being able to do… anything… is its own form of slow torture.
This ending completely did not work for me.
* Rand: This was “throw the book across the room” territory for me. “Rand walks away, footloose and fancy-free, off to have adventures” feels to me like the ending that Jordan originally wrote, and then never updated.
I can’t reconcile this Rand with the Rand whose character developed over the series. “Walking away from everything” might have been the Rand at the end of EOTW, but the Rand who fell in love with three women who are now variously injured, pregnant and facing some pretty big challenges? “So long, hope they have a good life; maybe they’ll look me up some time…” What the hell, man?
I am 100% convinced that Jordan would have rewritten that ending; it’s simply an artifact of what an epilogue to a much shorter series would have looked like, and Sanderson did the series a huge disservice by slavishly including it.
* Cadsuane: So, after all the breaking and rebuilding of the White Tower, we’re left with, well, an Amyrlin who pretty much sat the whole thing out. She’s someone who could have been a contender for Amyrlin a generation ago if she had bothered sticking around, and really hasn’t changed over the course of the series, so it’s not like she’s symbolic of any sort of change. She isn’t expected to live that long, so she’s effectively just a caretaker, which means we don’t get to see who the *real* Amyrlin that’s going to shape the direction of the Tower is going to be.
Moiraine as Amyrlin? Brings things full circle and has all kinds of symbolic value.
Someone else of the new generation, picking up Egwene’s legacy? Has thematic value, though I’m not sure who this would be; Mat’s sister, maybe?
Cadsuane as the new Amyrlin just brings nothing to the story whatsoever; I honestly think the epilogue would have been stronger if it was just left up in the air.
I wouldn’t wish the Amyrlin seat on Moiraine. I like her ;)
We start with an upfront explanation to mitigate expectations. It isn’t that my parents or in-laws don’t lay down the law, it’s just that when my kids ask for something (snacks or a fun show) it’s provided with very little wait time if any at all.
This immediate gratification creates cognitive dissonance for them when we pick them up and reestablish normative wait times. Dinner will be ready in an hour, if you’re hungry you can have an apple of a carrot. Then they throw a fit or sulk and we tell them to go do that in another room because we’re not interested in that kind of behavior. If they don’t move, I move them. Since they know I’m willing to go the distance with psychological warfare (which took a lot of initial time investment and needs to be “reapplied” about once a year) they now fall into line much more quickly than they used to.
All that being said, each kid is different, but most if not all crave a schedule of some sort. My parents are much better at putting the kids to bed on time than they used to be. Every kid turns psychotic when they don’t go to bed on time. Adults too, we’re just better at hiding some of it.
So yeah, BLUF: pre-stay and post-stay talking points about wait times and the same bed time regardless. May or may not work for your kids personalities, but it’s worth a shot.
Back to WoT, I didn’t mind the ending at all or even Rand’s remark about finally understanding what morality and autonomy are all about. For me, the inconsistency was the world building oops that misbehavior and substantive evil didn’t appear to hinge on the DO’s existence to me.
edit: to add that I’m not a fan of authorial conceptions of after action reunions and prefer those to be left up to the readers imagination because everyone’s a critic. Especially of the things they love.
Brian@135: Doubt very much that BWS had the option of a complete re-do of the Epilogue. Whether it would have been a good idea or not is another argument, but I’m pretty sure the existing end was a built-in “given” for whomever was going to complete the work.
@137 and above – not to be Debbie Downer, but my kids are 0-4 on grandparents as of last summer, so enjoy the good aspects of your parents and inlaws while you have them around. (Notwithstanding, I understand the points made re parents and spoiling kids.)
Re Moiraine – she had the world on her back since she heard the prophecy. I’m more than happy to have her hanging out with Thom and not having to worry about managing the remaining AS – especially as they figure out how to cooperate with the Black Tower, Aiel Wise Woman, and Windfinders. Cads can have the responsibility, belatedly.
Re Rand – same point as Moiraine. He deserves the time off. He no doubt will connect with kids and friends in his own time and in his own manner. He’s earned it.
Nicely done. Thank you. Agree on the Moiraine comments. Moiraine should have also been the one to throw Cadsuane under the Amrylin bus. Just saying. I liked the ending. That is all. Thanks again.
I haven’t commented for a long time, but I’ve been following your re-read since early 2009. Congratulations Leigh, and thank you.
Isilel @@@@@ 36: Thousand times your thousand times Moiraine got shafted in AMOL. I don’t think Moiraine as Amyrlin would have been better and I’m only 90% sure that Egwene would have been the best Amyrlin post-Tarmon Gaidon. IMO she still had too many issues with the Asha’man (not to mention the Seanchan) to rule effectively if she had managed to live. As for hunting down Moridin’s body: Does anybody other than the now-toast Forsaken know what he looks like? I suppose Nynaeve and Moiraine may know but I think that’s it.
On Mat’s actions at the end (not interacting with any of the Randland characters), IMO he gave up on Rand as a friend in TGH and never really wanted to be near him again. Even in AMOL he assumed Rand was mad from the taint and was going to do a Lews Therin on everybody around him. Yes, he killed Fain which (probably) saved Rand but still …
macster: Good point about Alivia “helping him to die” but that is certainly another one we won’t find out. I don’t think Rand could have talked to her before going to Shayol Ghul because he was still thinking he could kill the DO when he entered the cavern. I also liked the point about Cadsuane as Amyrlin. I have never liked her but she did come around somewhat at the end, so maybe her redemption will continue in her years as Amyrlin. Particularly since, if she embraces the job as I think she will, she will not want to die before finishing it so the oaths will have to go. She would certainly be able to bully the Sea Folk into getting their act straight. One of my biggest disappointments in Egwene earlier was her turn-around on the oaths. Hopefully Rand can tell them what the oath rods were originally meant for. Quite frankly, I think the oaths are only slightly better than the a’dam in controlling female channelers.
A couple of people earlier in the comments seem to have forgotten that Aviendha was pregnant during the Last Battle, as her last night with Rand got her in the family way.
My kids were already in their 30s when I started with WoT and no grandchildren of our own but we acquired 3 step-grandchildren and 4 step-great-grandchildren when our son got married last year.
And finally a HUGE Mahalo Nui Loa (Thanks with much love) to Leigh for all her work in this re-read. I am almost sorry I gave up on A Song of Ice and Fire but I couldn’t continue with that monster even if it meant being able to read more of Leigh’s commentary,
I’ve had 2 children since the re-read started/I found it (I found it fairly shortly after it started). Luke (3) and John Paul (16 mos). Neither are named for WoT characters, although we do have a Jedi in there (yes, he was intentionally named for him).
Condolences, CireNaes, that is tough.
I do also really hope that Rand is somewhat involved in the lives of his lovers/children. But I think the ending is definitely open to interpretation and he expects them to follow him at some point – but there are probably political considerations as well in terms of revealing the parentage (and that their father is still alive). So I don’t think he would purposefully be making himself absent from their lives.
I’ve had no children, that I know of, since the re-read started, but if there is one running around out there, I imagine his name is Rand
I have waited long to give voice to my feelings about the end of WoT, but now that I am here, I haven’t got much to say. I have always hated endings, I guess because in life, there aren’t any endings, life just goes on, with or without you. I guess I would have to write my own massive epic and I know I wouldn’t know how to end it. I guess the best ending is just riding off into the sunset after all.
Moraine; she did lose out all around, she didn’t even show up with her hubby to be and then never got any respect from anyone. It is well, she wouldn’t be consdidered for the Amrylin seat, I can’t even believe she went as part of the trio to Shayol Gul, she barely had any power left, there were many who had more, so I don’t know why she was there.
I think Perrin will sufferethe worst, he is going to be with Faile, so sad. Mat, on the other hand, I can see him being the emperor and while Tuon gives him a hard time, he has her eating out of the palm of his hand. I do hope he still has the General experience and hopefully has never lost the gambler in him and even still keeps his uncanny luck without the Taveren.
I do wonder, it seems that maybe it is only Rand that doesn’t have the Saidin any more, it seems like that stuff is over, but I noticed the Aes Sedai are still healing, so I’m not sure what is going on there.
As soon as Elayne gets with Rand, the whole world will be aware, that is sad for Rand. I think Rand wanted a clean break for his friends and family even though it hurt Tam, whom Rand thought the most of, but he is starting with a clean sheet.
The Three, did such a poor job of hiding the get away, they should be flogged. Sometimes I thiunk Nyneave is a bit dense, but don’t tell Lan I said that.
Last but not least, Leigh, it was a good ride and I agreed with you more than not. You were more than entertaining and I will be looking in on you to hear about your future, I am waiting for the next book from GRRM and your remarks there too.
Many thanks, Leigh, for all your thoughtful observations and unapologetic commentary. I haven’t commented much, but I’ve followed from the beginning, and it has been a delight. Thank you for giving me new insights and perspectives on a cherished, major part of my life…you have been awesome!
On Rand and his personal rather than political responsibilities: honestly I still think it’s in character, even if it’s not morally ideal. First, when he found out about the pregnancy, even though he wanted to be a father, he begged Elayne not to name a child after him. That suggests that, deep down, he’s still a thoroughly damaged, underconfident, broken person who might honestly think that he is doing his children a favor by staying clear of them unless they/their mothers seek him out. His physical wounds are healed, but I think it’s unlikely that his far more severe psychological wounds (talking real world psychology, not just The Black Stuff On His Brain, which I’m not convinced is identical) entirely are. He’s only 20 on top of it. I do think that one serious problem caused by the DKS illustrations is that they may have obscured, for an awful lot of readers, just how young Rand is.
And likewise, while Rand’s Happy Harem was always the element of the series that annoyed me the most (it always felt far too much like a glimpse into a private fantasy that I’d rather had stayed private, and the psychology felt much more like “guy with a common law wife he loves, but two other women also who we are supposed to accept that he loves but really it just kinda looks like he wants to shag them once in a while” than a realistic portrait of a polyamorous marriage), I do actually really like how, in AMoL, the member of the quartet who is still the most uncomfortable with the whole mess is. . .Rand, judging by his interaction with Aviendha. It’s not like he was raised to expect polygamy as a valid option for himself, and the fact that he’s still noticeably uncomfortable with the emotional aspects (however enthusiastic when it comes to actual sex) has a ring of authenticity that I didn’t expect this late in the game. And if he was never really, gut-level comfortable with being married to three women, then it’s suddenly a lot more plausible and less blameworthy that he expects them to use the bond to look for him instead of the other way around. Could it be that he’s too underconfident to do otherwise?
Rand doesn’t have much choice in leaving, for now. Few outside his circle of friends would believe he was Rand, and enemies who did believe might have an easier job at offing him.
Re: the Bhelliom- Aphrael tosses Bhelliom into the ocean, but she still knew where it was; it was only hidden from the regular people.
Thank you Leigh! This re-read has been amazing. Thanks for your hard work.
Thanks Tor.com too and all the commentors!
I’ve been reading WOT for 11 years and to reach The End is so sad. The end of the reread is more sadness. I hope the news this coming Tuesday is really good. Moar WOT!
Several comments.
First, I join the mulitude thanking Leigh for the reread.
Second, I point out again that having Suffa and Moggy as damane
would have given RJ many potential plot twists for the outriggers. Surely the two of them would have been major players in the outriggers.
Third, OBVIOUSLY the world will eventually discover that the Dragon STILL LIVES. Nynaeve WILL GET THE CREDIT for healing someone three days dead. That is how history becomes legend then degrades into myth.
Fourth, I join those who say that Moiraine got stiffed after her return from Finnland. Her roles at Merilor and in the cave were handled in too casual a mannor. In my mind, this was the major letdown in the entire series.
Fifth (and last) I would have appreciated a paragraph in Cadsuane’s thoughts at the end about how Norla’s intel on the flaw in Calendor was the key to the successful manouver which defeated Moridin. (Not surprised it wasn’t there since Team Jordon doesn’t know that Norla was the source of all Cadsuane’s info on the flaws in Calendor. Maybe one day I will get my fanfic version of Cadsuane’s days in the Black Hills into good enough shape to post it somewhere.)
Just want to add my thanks to the chorus. Leigh, you have brought a unique voice to the reread that I have enjoyed. Thanks.
As for grandparents, it is said that they and grandchildren have a common enemy. I have found a good bit of truth in that.
Thanks for the re-read. Although i didnt always agree with Leigh’s POV,i respect it was different and had a logic to it. Kudo’s
also i just wanted to share this infographic for the WOT series.
http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/89071-the-pattern-as-seen-from-a-whole-its-big/
CireNaes @137 (and anthonypero)
Well put, wrt. the wait-time problem. I can relate, from the other side. My wife jumps when our grandson says “boo.” I don’t, which can send the evil eye in my direction. The expectation of instant gratification doesn’t serve one well as an adult. Real life doesn’t always work that way. I’ll wager many of us re-learn that lesson frequently.
BillinHI @142
Excellent points, all. Especially the one about Avi being in the family way from pre-body switch Rand.
WOTman @145
Moraine had a powerful angreal for the confrontation in the Pit of Doom, and, above all, Rand trusted her.
Throwing the Horn into the ocean might make it disappear for a few Ages until the land and sea change and it reappears in the right Age.
First time poster, found the re-read 2 yrs ago when my youngest daughter, Elayne, was a baby. Reading these recaps/commentary made those nighttime feeds something to look forward to.
2 kids born while reread was happening but both before I discovered it, I had to play catch-up.
Yes Elayne is named after WoT Elayne as both hubby and I love the series. I couldn’t use Nynaeve or Egwene (a little to outside the box for me) so Elayne it is. But it suits her, she even has red-gold hair!
Leigh, thank you so much for all the hours you’ve spent on this reread. Every Wednesday morning here in Australia I read the next post, hopefully before the kids wake up and disturb me. It’s my favourite morning reading.
to all those regular commenters, I feel I ‘know’ you through your comments, in a way that only those who share a love of something can bond.
Just to clarify my thoughts with regards to Rand’s parental responsibility. I
recognizecan be convinced that he has no choice but to walk away at this point. That’s not really the issue. The issue I’m having is that, as he is walking away, the author(s) give him zero thought towards this. It is supposed to be a bittersweet ending, and personal loss is a big part of why this is ending is bittersweet. What would be a greater personal loss to a responsible person raised in the Two Rivers than not being able to take personal responsibility in the upbringing of your own kids?I just felt that some screen time as Rand is walking away thinking on these matters, knowing he really has no choice, showing some regret, then resolving in his mind that it is the right, necessary thing would not only be appropriate and in character, but would have enhanced the actual ending.
@@@@@ anthonypero
I think in face of winning the Apocalypse and no longer having to carry a certain mountain the initial relief drowns out anything else. So far he never even really expected to survive the whole ordeal, which means that if anything whatever measure of involvement he will have in his kids’ futures is infinitely more than he ever though he’d get.
And I stay by my impression that he will a whole lot of involvement, however right now he’s just happy to get a well-deserved breather…
The end of WoT, as far as I see it, doesn’t concern itself with the fallout of everything that’s happened. It is just there, in the immediate moment, where issues and emotions are very different from where they will be when everyday life starts up again. That doesn’t mean that they won’t be adressed by the characters, it’s just not something we’ll get to see in official written form (possible further insights in the Encyclopedia aside).
That’s the beauty of this ending. If you want Rand to be the responsible daddy, friend and son after his little time-out (like me), you can have it. If you want Rand to ride off into the sunset and be Kane, roaming the continent, no ties, no responibilities, no nothing…you can have that, too. If you want him to be a jerk-ass who tells everyone to go screw themselves, well that’s there, too.
The ending is what you make of it.
Oh, and one more contrarian opinion before it’s too late. I was actually INCREDIBLY relieved that Rand did not, in any meaningful sense, rise from the dead after three days. As in, if he had I would be repairing a book-sized hole in my wall, and it was a really big book! And I really couldn’t have in good conscience considered it for the Hugo if it had been written that way–it would be that serious of a flaw, IMHO. Jordan’s handling of the messianic aspects of the story was always far more subtle than that–look back at the conversations with Masema and Taim. If the story had ended with, effectively, saying “Jesus was the First Age Dragon and now Rand is the Third Age Dragon”, that would have been so maddeningly literalistic that I don’t think I could have tolerated it. It would have been worse than Fain pulling a Gollum. In hindsight, I think either all the “three days dead” stuff was a bit of a fakeout (the theory I don’t have time to look up that it might contribute to Fourth Age legends, I can get on board with). Or maybe it really was just hyperbolic conversation, involving a number that signifies “completion” for most Western readers, that set off a whole line of theorizing that was never actually intended to be there.
Lovely, just lovely. Thank you Leigh, for all your work. I wouldn’t change a thing of the story, this is obviously the way Harriet wanted it. I can’t wait for the encyclopedia, hope there are little tidbits hidden in there!!
Thanks for the re-read, Leigh.
I wonder what would happen if Rand on Moridin’s body met some Darkfriend that knew Moridin (like Damane Moghedien) what dialogue would ensue.
I also wonder what would happen if somebody who knew the first owner of that body (a borderlander, most likely, captured by trollocs) met Rand in Moridin’s body. I think it’d go something like this:
Stranger: Phil? Hey, Phil? Phil! Phil Connors? Phil Connors, I thought that was you!
Rand in Moridin’s Body: Hi, how you doing?
(Starts to walk away)
Stranger: Hey, hey! Now, don’t you tell me you don’t remember me because I sure as balefire remember you.
RIMB: Not a chance.
Stranger: Ned… Ryerson. “Needlenose Ned”? “Ned the Head”? C’mon, buddy. We grew up on Irinjavar together. Ned Ryerson: I did the whistling belly-button trick at the amateur gleeman talent show? Bing! Ned Ryerson: got the shingles real bad senior year of bard’s college, almost didn’t graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson: I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple times until you told me not to anymore? Well?
RIMB: Ned Ryerson?
Ned: Bing!
RIMB: Bing.
Wow, I can’t believe this is over. Amazing job, Leigh!
How about some overview posts? Final thoughts on each main character, for example?
Isilel @36
“I am also surprised that the trio, all of whom have lost friends during the Battle of Merrilor, found it so difficult to pretend being sad. Particularly Elayne, who lost a brother, an adoptive uncle in Bryne, a close friend in Egwene, another friend in Siuan… she really shouldn’t have found it difficult to show some grief.”
This really bugged me too. We should add to that the trauma of her Warder’s death and knowing that she was about to lose Birgitte for good too. She should’ve been a total wreck emotionally.
Ryamano
Now that’s a classic. Am I right or am I right?
@91.macster:
“As for how she made it back, in the scene where Faile and the others
were interrogated by the Dreadlords and Aravine was revealed as a
Darkfriend, their group had been heading for the Town in the Blasted
Lands, and they all lined up to go through a gateway from there to a
supply camp near the Heights at Merrilor. It was after they went through the gate that Aravine was killed, and Olver and Faile both tried to get the Horn to Mat (they both could see and were aiming for the Heights). So they were already near Merrilor when Faile led the Trollocs off and ended up buried and wounded like that.”
Ahhh…I didn’t catch that when I read that part. I got a bit confused due to a lack of a map for that part the story. I wish that they would have included a couple of maps for there and around Shayol Ghul. Trying to keep track of the battle around the mountain was maddening.
Thank you very much macster. :-)
__________
Also, I noticed that quite a few posters did not like the way that some of Mat’s scenes were characterized post RJ. However to me, the most egregious portrayal to one of our heroes, was one line of Perrin’s back in ToM when Faile asks Perrin what was bothering him. He then respsonds to her with this gem-
“My failures continue to mount. It’s a wonder anyone continues to follow me.”
Not only is that awful line eye-rolling as heck, it does not fit Perrin’s character either as seen from his view toward what he wants Faile to think of him regarding his ability to carry out important assignments.
From tPoD (chapter 8) –
“If only he were half of what she though of him. Alliandre was a netted bird, the Seanchan would fall over like dolls for Perrin Goldeneyes, and he would snatch up the Prophet and take him to Rand if Masema had ten thousand men around him. Not for the first time he had realized that however much her anger hurt and confused him, it was her disapointment he feared. If he ever saw that in here eyes, it would rip the heart out of his chest.”
That “I’m a loser baby, so why don’t you kill me.” line from ToM should have either been reworked into something more bearable/believable, or just made as his own POV personal thought instead. As seen from the above quote, Perrin would never have said anything like that to her.
And another one that nagged me is Faile’s POV from aMoL (chapter 33)-
“The arrival of the Sharans was devastating, as was the betrayals of the great captains, including Faile’s own father.”
So from one tiny line, we assume that she acknowledges that her father, mother and whole family is greatly dishonored by him possibly being a Darkfriend, and betraying the forces of light. But most likely she will never see here father and mother again due to execution for treason. But, she does not dwell on it or show any concern? If that line is going to be included about her knowing this obvious dreadfull news, then we had better get much more than one very brief passage on it. Otherwise remove it. I am a bit surprised that Harriet did not catch this and have it either extended or removed. Because you know, we just had to have as many battle scenes crammed into this book as much as possible. Characterization be damned.
AnthonyPero@156: Didn’t you just have another child? I think you are very close to this issue, re: Rand’s responsibility to his children.
Rand is a good man. He has worn Responsibility like a cloak since he accepted his Dragonhood in the 2nd book. He will be there for his children. Nothing could make him happier. It’s WHY he saved the world, and ALL of humankind. We missed so many small, important thoughts ,and details at the end of this book, I think it is up to us to extrapolate from what we know of these peoples’ character, to postulate the future. All will be well with Rand and his children. He did save the world for Them.
At this end point, he needed to disappear, for Elayne to forge a new nation, for the Aes Sedai and Ash’a’ men to find a balance, for Perrin and Faile to unite their lands, for the Aiel to make their place, to NOT rule. He would be such a force, such a profound presense, that all would bow to him, for awhile.
He is a good, selfless Hero. He will reveal himself, to those of import to him, when the time is ripe. The 3 women know where he is. They feel his “golden threads”. His pleasures from now on will be the small, unique, pedestrian pleasures of every day Life. I don’t think there’s anyone alive who would appreciate it more.
As a relative late comer to the reread scene, I have found myself tossing and turning on Monday nights, knowing that the next Butler-reread episode is coming up tomorrow!! (is squee non-masculine, because that’s the term that fits, but maybe I should just keep it inside).
I stumbled across the reread books for Kindle because I was just bored with the books I had been reading and absorbed them like a sponge. Late nights, eyes screaming for closure, just wanting to make it to the next bit, but finally giving in only to pick it up first thing in the morning.
Leigh, I feel like I have gotten to know you through your writing style in both the narrative and commentary. It has been a wonderful, wonderful read. I am looking forward to downloading it all again, and doing a reread of the rereads.
Well done and cheers from a huge fan.
Well, its been a fun and interesting re-read. WOT has been a wonderful series for me, and a truly moving read. Leigh has been an entertaining re-reader and I have enjoyed most of my time spent re-reading here. However, like many of you, I can’t say my experience has been entirely positive or without complaint. My enthusiasm for the series has waxed and waned over the years. I first discovered the books in 1998 and was thrilled with the fantasy epic to end all fantasy epics. Like Leigh, Path of Daggers was the first book I had to wait for and I think suffered a bit in my esteem because of that fact. I discovered many fan sites/newsgroups in the wild and woolly days of the late nineties INTERNET. The books lent themselves to so much speculation, theories and discussion!
Yet there was a down side as well. Like the poster up above, I agree that the first four books were the high point of the series for me. Not that the other books were not good with plenty of Crowning Moments of Awesome, but they did become bogged down in the weight of too many plots and characters. I would get burned out on WOT, move on and get sucked back in when a new book was released. Each successive release seemed to be more like a few new panels in an eagerly anticipated newspaper comic strip from the days of yore: a few brief scenes then on to waiting for next weeks installment.
On to this post; I totally agree with Moiraine got shafted, especially having Cads be the one to see and recognize Rand riding off into the sunset. It should have been Moiraine, at the very least. She is the one who earned it. Maybe Brandon just felt like Moiraine was really RJ’s and he didn’t feel comfortable writing her? Anyway, the body switch was not really surprising. There have been many theories that this exact event was going to happen, every since the infamous “crossing of the balefire streams” incident that linked Rand & Moridin. One interesting theory I heard that linked Rand’s dead yet lives with Ny’s healed someone three days dead in a non-cheesy manner: Rand dies, goes to World of Dreams, Ny sees him there and does what Morgy did to Brigitte and throws him out, where the “three” re-bond him. Presto: All new Dragon Reborn, Reborn. I agree with the ‘seeing the Matrix’ as well.
So, this is kind of how in my mind, I see Perrin finding out That Rand is alive.
Perrin was sitting quietly in the corner reflecting on the past few months. There was the massive cleanup of Merrilor Fields that took weeks, burying the honored fallen, and burning the corpses of trollocs. Faile and he had taken their oaths to become Queen and Consort of Saldaea. They were in the process of rebuilding Maradon when word that Elayne had given birth came to them. They collected Grady, whose wife and kids had moved north with Perrin, and traveled to New Caemlyn, which at this point wasn’t much more than a cleared out portion of the old Palace.
There was the official greeting and then they had all retired to Elaynes apartments to talk. She looked as beautiful as ever with the new glow of motherhood. Faile, with her belly just beginning to show was holding one of the twins, while Morgase held her granddaughter.
Elayne looked up expectantly just before a knock on the door, it opened to reveal Aviendha. She was walking but had to use a cane for help. Perrin smiled at her, and she nodded in greeting. Walking to Elaynes side she was crushed in a hug as Elayne got up to greet her.
“Aviendha, thank you for coming, meet your niece and nephew.”
Aviendha took both babies and held them, kissed their cheeks. “They are good and healthy, strong, they have great blood in them.” she turned and looked at Elayne, “and soon will have cousins to grow up with” raising her eyebrows and smiling. Elayne gasped and hugged her close. “oh my sister, that is wonderful news. We must have a celebration.”
Perrin took his leave and wandered the remnants of the palace, there were people everywhere, some removing old burned out hulks of the palace, others placing new walls, doors, ceilings. It was very busy, a cacophony of noise. Perrin noticed Grady following him, and motioned for him to come closer.
“Why are you following me Grady?”
“The Ladies orders Lord Perrin.” he smiled, “of course it is also a beautiful day to be outside”
It had been beautiful for a couple of months, not too hot, not cold, just enough rain to keep things green and growing, it was like spring had been unleashed and wasn’t going to ever change. Perrin walked down through the burnt out husk of Caemlyn to the former city gates. He noticed a lone man riding a horse up the road. as the man got closer and Perrin got a closer look at who it was, he swallowed hard.
“Grady, wait here, I’ll be right back”
Perrin shifted into the wolf dream, shifted to his room in the palace, exited the dream, grabbed his hammer. slipping back into the dream he traveled to the city gates with his hammer at the ready.
The man had slipped from his horse, he was a young man, dark hair, borderlander from his looks. as he looked up at Perrin, he caught his scent. Perrin felt the hairs on his neck rise. He mouthed a name, and the stranger gave him a shushing motion.
Perrin looked at Grady “Grady, go tell Faile I am fine and I will be back in the palace soon.”
“Lord Perrin?””Do it Grady, I won’t be long”
As Grady opened up a gateway and left, Perrin walked closer to the man who was standing next to his horse. It was the man that Rand had carried out of the Pit of Doom, he knew it was, but yet it wasn’t. Perrin knew people, he could smell who they were, standing before him was Rand, he knew it, but how?
“Lord Perrin, I am a humble traveler, storyteller and musician, perhaps I could stay and entertain at the palace for a night or two.” I have many a grand tale to tell, sure to leave a person gasping in wonder. Perhaps if we go someplace private, I might show you my skills.
Perrin nodded, “Grab my arm and hold on.” as the man grasped his arm Perrin shifted to the Wolf dream.
He looked up at the man and said, “How?”
” I don’t know Perrin, a gift from the creator, a life given back for a life freely given”
Perrin stared for a moment then engulfed Rand in hug, tears of joy falling down his face.
“I needed a few months to process what happened to me, but have come back to be with my loved ones in whatever way I can without letting people know who I am, I will need your help my friend.”
“you have it Rand, we”ll think of something, thank the Creator you’re back.”
You know what would be fun, everyone pick one character, and write a few paragraph bio of what happened to them after the last battle. any takers?
Sam@168
Yes. Watch this space.
Thank you, Leigh, for forging through to the end. I have always found your writing style engaging and snappy (so much so, that I have even tried to emulate it on occasion). And also, thank you for helping to create a community of fine, well-spoken people, who I am honored to number among my friends.
As for other comments, well, I have my own criticisms of the ending, but I don’t particularly feel the need to air them on tor.com. Besides, my love for the overall story far outweighs them. I am just grateful we got an ending at all and ultimately a happy one for Rand.
And as for detractors of the series as a whole, try as I might, I find lengthy walls of text exhausting to read, especially if they seem mostly designed to complain or criticize. There are plenty of books, bands, causes, authors, movies, tv shows – etc., that I am NOT a fan of, but to waste inordinate amounts of time targeting them for criticism…? That’s baffling to me. I’d much rather spend my time enjoying the things I do love than in heaping ire on those I do not. Just my .03c.
ames @155 – I love your story. :) Also Elayne’s red-gold hair – that’s priceless. Welcome, even at the last hour!
April @170 – “Besides, my love for the overall story far outweighs (my criticisms). I am just grateful we got an ending at all and ultimately a happy one for Rand.”
This.
Sam @167 – that was great! *applause*
April@170,
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement.
Thanks RobM
Sam, that was awesome. Just as it should be. ;-)
@167 Samadi – Wow nice job. Not sure I could write anything without it being terrible but I like the idea.
“Thom darling?” Thom looked up from the song he was writing to meet her eyes. “Yes Moraine Sedai” while he smiled at her across the tent.
“Still so formal? Let’s travel to Carhein, I feel like I need to look in on what’s left of my family.”
“As you wish.”
Don’t tell me it was so bad that I KILLED THE THREAD.
I do want them to travel and have me time as a couple. Heck, they may travel by horse instead of gateway.
Thom: Speaking of your family, Moiraine, I just remember you and Elayne are pretty closely related. How about that? Funny how it never came up until now.
@@@@@ 123Braid_Tug Thirteen grandchildren in last 5 years.
On the comments above. Loved all of them – even the critical ones. But I guess the one I agree with the most is April @@@@@170.
@macster : I should add that I do like your comments, even though you are much keener on the series than me. Long, but good!
Since I started commenting, I have had a girl, now 7 months old. Since I started the reread, a boy, now two and a half. Since starting Wheel of Time, my first kiss, two degrees, 6 jobs, 38 countries, one wonderful wife.
And that, @170, might explain why I felt the need to write a lot. I wanted WoT to be great, not good.
An ending.
I must confess, I haven’t frequented the comment section in these re-reads for quite some time(life has- unfortunately or not! – been quite busy these past few years…), but I have made an effort to read every one of your posts, Leigh. I don’t know quite how to say it, but thank you. Thank you for your randomness, snark, and deep insight into the Wheel of Time. I’ve much enjoyed!! It was the end of 2008(or perhaps early 2009? I don’t remember now!) and I’d just discovered the Wheel of Time for the first time. I wondered if other people had the same love for them that I did, and thus did a google search and found this site. I think you were on one of the early books, and I don’t even remember which was my first comment!! But for your work on this re-read, I wouldn’t have enjoyed many happy hours of reading and interacting with all you awesome people here. :) Y’all are awesome, you know.
And wait – am I supposed to write something about the ending here? I suppose so, eh? Anyways, I finished this book over a year ago now, and I haven’ re-read it yet since. I plan to(soon!) start a re-read of the entire series, but after I finished AMoL, I felt…satisfied. And I did not want to spoil it with too quickly re-reading it. My feelings upon finishing the book were ill-defined, perhaps. I was maybe hoping for a bit more. I was hoping for some kind of reunion. Yet, the way it ended did make sense. And when I closed the book, I felt it was somehow right that it ended with Rand riding off, off into the unknown – a future of peace.
And as others have already stated, this story – this “Wheel of Time” – has become one of the most real stories I have read, and I will always treasure this saga. I like to often re-read series, and many books cannot hold up to re-reads. The Wheel of Time can, and immersing myself in the world of Rand and Egwene and Nynaeve and Moiraine and Lan and Perrin and Mat and Elayne and Faile and….so so many others…has brought myself many happy moments. This ending wasn’t the ending. But it was an ending. And for that, I am grateful.
Again, thanks to you all for the many deep discussions and silly times we’ve had over the years. :)
Sam @167
Yes!
April @170
Yes! And there are several forums where those who want to grouse about WoT in general or Brandon’s handling of the last 3 books specifically are welcomed. I suppose one aspect of the definition of Troll is taking pleasure in harshing other people’s good times.
Pressing Matters
The wagon full of empty barrels creaked and groaned behind the dun gelding as Tam al’Thor, High Lord and Steward of the Two Rivers guided it up the Quarry Road to his farm. “It will be good to spend a few nights on the farm”, he thought – away from the endless decisions and from a life in Perrin’s former manor that he had only reluctantly accepted as his duty.
It seemed to Tam that the day felt much like a certain day not much more than two years ago where everything had started for Rand and him. Indeed, it was the same road, but this time the barrels were empty and he was headed to his farm, not from it. Furthermore, the dun was skittish – not like placid Bela.
Bela! He could hardly believe the story that Lady..no..Queen Faile had told him. His shaggy mare had been a hero in her own right during the Last Battle!
As if on cue, the dun snorted at a shadow and pulled his thoughts back. He rarely made it out to the farm now, the sheep and other animals were long gone and almost nothing grew. But the apples did. It was almost as if an Ogier had walked through his apple orchards and sung to the trees. Such apples deserved harvesting and pressing and so “High Lord al’Thor” would just have to be farmer al’Thor for a few days. Abell could handle things.
The Stewardship of the Two Rivers had been thrust on him by surprise on the morning of his last day at Tar Valon. It was not the only surprise that day.
After the Last Battle, many people were mustered out from Merrilor or the battlefield near Shayol Ghul – but leaders had converged on Tar Valon for several days of planning. The Last Battle was won, but survival for many now depended on getting more food grown and distributed. The final planning day had many partings as gateways were being opened to all parts of the land.
He had expected to help Perrin, understanding that the new Queen Faile would demand much of Perrin’s time to deal with the enormous needs of Saldea, but he was still surprised that it was Faile and Elayne who came to him: “Tam, Perrin is torn between being there for me and his sense of duty to the Two Rivers”, began Faile. “And I must tell you … he is not well in ways that may not heal for some time. There is a sadness in him that tears at my soul and his — Nynaeve-Sedai has delved him and says there is something that she dares not try to cure. Elyas has spoken to me and said the wolves told him that Perrin protected Rand somehow, and the sadness is a cost he will bear.”
Elayne added “Queen Faile has suggested, and I agree, that you should become the Steward of the Two Rivers. While I know this is not what you have sought, please understand that you are the person who will be accepted in Perrin’s place and that you are respected by all of the other leaders in Andor and elsewhere.” He knew this too, and reluctantly swore his oath of office to Elayne. That alone would have made his last day in Tar Valon surprising enough.
“You have your duties, Tam al’Thor, and it is a pity. Any Aes Sedai would jump at the chance to bond you if you would have her, but it appears the time is not right.” The speaker was a willowy Domani that Tam belatedly recognized as Leane Sharif, the former Keeper who had so coldly dismissed Tam and Abell just a few short years ago when Siuan Sanche was still the Amyrlin seat. Tam’s heart skipped a beat – there was something in Leane’s voice that implied much more than just a Warder bond and he felt stirrings like a younger man that he quickly suppressed.
“Circumstances do change though – I would be most pleased if you should find me when they do.” She was off with a flirtatious touch and a toss of her head. Tam just sought the void, willing his heart to slow. There was really no point in thinking more about it.
A strange day it had been indeed. He had exchanged hugs and tearful goodbyes with Nynaeve and Lan, then Moiraine and Thom. There were many others to see too, others that were now peers of a sort: Queen Alliandre and Arganda, King Darlin, Elayne’s mother Morgase (now regent over the rebuilding Caemlyn with Elayne making her base in Cairhien), and the First of Mayene with her husband Galad Damodred. No one was surprised to hear that the Children of the Light would now be based in Mayene.
A surprisingly warm goodbye came from Logaine, the leader of the Black Tower. Logaine radiated warmth and people responded to him. He seemed nothing like the angry, pained man Tam remembered from the battlefield. He was virtually never seen without the Aes Sedai Gabrelle and the two of them would look at each other in much the same manner that the Asha’man Androl and Pevara-Sedai would exchange looks.
The biggest surprise came last. As he was preparing to lead the remainder of the Two River’s men through a gateway, a messenger came running up and said “Tam al’Thor! The Amyrlin requests your presence.” Much had changed lately, but some things had not and no one ignored such a summons.
Saerin-Sedai, the new Keeper, ushered Tam into the Amyrlin’s study where Cadsuane barked at him to sit. Now that Tam had a status roughly equivalent to a king, there were briefings to be done and Saerin went through them with occasional minor comments from Cadsuane. Once Saerin had gone through her folder, Cadsuane asked her “Please leave us now”. Saerin departed, and Tam noted just a hint of surprise on her face as she closed the door on her way out.
“A sharp one, that Brown. She would have been a perfectly acceptable Amyrlin.” said Cadsuane. “I see you noticed her surprise. Yes, it is unusual for me to meet with someone without her.” Tam contented himself with a simple “Yes Mother” and waited for Cadsuane. There was a pause.
“I find myself now being almost 300 years old, in a position I had successfully avoided for centuries, and yet I am faced with following after someone who, had she lived, would have been reckoned as one of the greatest to wear the striped stole. A mere girl who didn’t reach her 20th year!” Cadsuane affixed him with a stare. “Mind your land well, Tam Aal’Thor. We owe a debt to your little village we can scarcely repay.” “Everyone will remember your son – yes I call him that – and the other two boys. But do not forget Egwene Al’Vere!” Cadsuane paused and muttered almost to herself “A remarkable girl, I wish I had known her better.”
She looked up, “Bah! I waste time. I called you now because I am going to do something that I have rarely done.” She looked away as if in thought and continued “I will probably not remain as Amyrlin for too many years. I will be a minor figure in the history of the White Tower. But for the time that I do lead these fool women, I will be a better leader because of something you taught me.” She now directed her gaze back squarely at him. “I owe you my thanks, Tam al’Thor. It shouldn’t have taken me so long to understand the difference between a leader and a bully.”
—
The dun snorted and once again Tam was pulled back to the present. This time though, the horse had really seen something. Ahead on the road a rider approached and then stopped and dismounted slowly. Just for a second, Tam’s heart lurched as the rider’s black cloak appeared to lay flat in the wind. Then a second look revealed that the cloak was really a dark brown and its owner an ordinary man.
As Tam approached, he recognized the man and his heart leaped again as he reached for his sword.
“Rather silly to be reaching for a sword if you believe me to be who you think I am” said Moridin, for indeed it was the Forsaken that Rand had carried out of the Pit of Doom and who had vanished during Rand’s funeral. “Suffice to say, you are in no danger. Not only do I bear you no ill will, I would prefer to accompany you.”
“I doubt I could stop you – what do you want of me?” Tam asked.
“Strange as it may sound, I would like to help you harvest your apples and press the juice. Let’s just say it would take me back to a time I would like to hearken back to.”
Something about Moridin’s manner put Tam at ease. He decided to trust his instincts and took his hand away from his sword. “I can’t stop you” was all he said.
“Actually, you probably can” said the younger man. “I can no longer channel the One Power and I am well aware of your skill with that blade.” He pointed at Tam’s sword. “I count on the fact that I also know you to be a man of honor who would not harm me as long as I give no cause.”
Tam wasn’t sure what to believe but saw no other course than to let this strange encounter play out. “Very well, I won’t stop you then. This road is open to all. But if you intend to come to my farm you will have more to tell of your purposes.” Moridin said nothing but turned and headed in the direction of the farm.
The two men walked together, Moridin remaining on foot and leading his mount. Tam watched him walk for a little while.
“Rand.”
The man spun and looked at Tam. “How? How did you know?”
Tam laughed – “It’s a skill I learned fairly recently from a gleeman we both know. A skill, I might add, that probably saved you and the world not long ago. A person can change their face but they do not change how they walk.” Tam paused, then continued. “It really is you son .. isn’t it? I don’t know how this can be.”
Rand (for indeed it was Rand) laughed and came forward and hugged Tam. “It really is me. It’s beyond explaining – suffice to say that he wanted to die and I wanted to live and we both got our wish. Please understand Father if I don’t want to discuss this further.”
Tam felt a warm glow as they proceeded on to the farm. Rand was alive! He had suspected something based on Min and Elayne’s behavior, but the confirmation was sweet indeed. Nothing could compare to the joy now of just walking and talking with his son. The burdens of the world had been lifted from Rand’s shoulders and Tam had no trouble seeing past Rand’s new appearance to revel in the joy of finding his son alive and so at peace. Rand would say little about the recent events and nothing at all about what had transpired under the mountain, but he was eager for news of the Two Rivers and delighted in the most mundane details.
They walked and talked, laughing often. The sun was low in the sky when they arrived at the farm. Tam had to prime the well, and Rand headed to the chopping block to split wood. The rhythm of chores came back easily, as if the last few years had been a dream.
After yard chores, Tam brought an armful of wood into the house and set it in the fireplace. He began to cast about for his flint and steel but Rand just stared at the wood. A thin wisp of smoke appeared and flames gradually engulfed the firewood.
“I thought you said you could not channel?” Tam asked while shifting his attention to chopping the ingredients for a stew.
“I spoke the truth, I cannot” said Rand, “But I have been given some other, lets say, ‘abilities’ — abilities more suited to someone who will let the world save itself without his help in the future.” Rand’s voice held a touch of irony, but no bitterness.
“I’m still your son, and I’m still him – I have all the memories of holding enough power to save or destroy. I no longer want any part of that.”
Tam fell to his work preparing dinner and it was a little later, the sun long down, when they finally sat down to eat. “I can’t help thinking back to the last time we shared dinner here”, said Tam.
As if on cue, Rand jerked his head up and said “We will have a visitor.” Tam started to question him and then a pounding came on the door.
“Open up sheepherder! … I know it’s you and you know it’s me!” Min’s voice! Rand lifted the bar, the door swung inward, and indeed there stood Min Farshaw in an outlandish costume that looked like something the Seanchan would wear.
Min had a sharp intake of breath when she looked at Rand, then composed herself. “It is you and and it is what I saw.” Then she was in his arms and they held each other tight without speaking.
“Oh Rand” Min moaned after a little while – “Two hands again – I like that. I’m not sure about that chin though, I’ll just have to get used to it” she laughed. Then she looked at Tam and apologized for ignoring him.
“It’s all right Min, I understand. I was young once myself” (“And so old yet that I haven’t forgotten” he thought to himself.) “Please come in and join us for supper.”
“Oh Tam, I’m so sorry we can’t — Rand, we have to go!”
Rand started. “Min what are you talking about?”
“Oh Rand, it’s Fortuona, and Mat! They are in mortal danger and you have to come.”
“Fortuona? The Seanchan Empress? Forgive me if I don’t care that much about her. Mat is another matter, but he’s usually quite capable of handling himself. Besides Min, I had better tell you that I can no longer channel. I’m afraid I’m not much good to you”
“Oh you half-wit looby! I love you and you know it and you will always be ‘good’ to me. But Rand, you have to be there.”
Rand paused. “So this is something you’ve ‘seen’, right?”
“Yes. And we need to go to Seanchan now. Rand, Mat needs you! They are surrounded by traitors.”
“Seanchan is months by ship if we could even find one – and of course I can’t make a gateway.”
Min put her finger on Rand’s lip. “How do you think I got here, woolhead?”
At this point Tam looked out over Min’s shoulder and saw the glowing edges of an open gateway out in the yard. There was a Seanchan sul-dam and a damane with strange tattoos that identified her as a former Sharan.
Min saw where Tam was looking. “They are both devoted to Mat – they’re the only ones I can trust.” She turned back to Rand. “I didn’t ‘see’ that you would no longer be able to channel – but it doesn’t change what I did see and that is either you come with me to Seanchan or Mat and the Empress will die!”
Rand sighed, then turned to Tam. “I can’t abandon Mat. I’m sorry I won’t be able to help with the apples.”
“It’s all right son. It appears that the Pattern isn’t quite done with you after all. Of course you need to go — and I wasn’t planning on help anyway. I’ll be fine. But be careful and bring yourself, and this one back safely.” He nodded fondly at Min.
Min ran over and hugged Tam. Then she took Rand’s hand and headed out into the night to the waiting Seanchan and the open gateway. Tam watched them go through and saw the gateway wink out. He sighed.
He almost felt like he should have gone with them. It was hard to admit after the pain and terror of the Last Battle that he would ever think about another “adventure” but the truth was he was very much looking forward to when he could lay his stewardship aside and be just Tam Al’Thor, blademaster again.
Hopefully Leane would be patient.
Fork@184 Wow, that was fun. The only part that was beyond belief was Cads apologizing to Tam! I only wish that WOT characters reflected on experience, expressed apologies, and learned from mistakes. That happened so rarely as to be irritating, and Cads was perhaps the worst of all . . .
Bravo at 167 and 184. And may hundreds more follow, even if they are not consistent with one another they will be welcomed by my WOT starved soul. Especially if they are as well written as these two.
Thanks, Leigh. It’s been wonderful. I don’t want it to end (and that says it all, doesn’t it?)
___/___
~lakesidey
@@@@@ 39. The Bastard Uncle
That’s exactly what I thought, too, when I first finished reading the book (that the Creator had “rewarded” Rand) but no one else seemed to think that. Good to know I’m not alone.
Excellent story! I like the idea that Rand would one day turn up to help his father on the farm like the old days. And, even though I’m not so sure it would actually happen, I can enjoy the fantasy that Cadsuane would endeavour to be an Amyrlin worthy of following Egwene. (I really dislike that she apparently gets the job, so much so that I generally pretend it’s not true. I don’t specially dislike Cadsuane as a character, but putting her on the Amyrlin Seat is just bound to undo all the good that Egwene did, and it makes Egwene’s death even harder to take.)
It’s taken me four days to manage to read through this post and all the comments, thanks to horrible assignments. But I’ve made it to the end and I’m determined to post my thoughts!
First up, I’m in complete agreement with those who say Moiraine got shafted. I like that it was her and Nynaeve supporting Rand, but I’m sad that that means they didn’t really get to do anything. A touch like Leigh suggests of Moiraine being the one to see Cadsuane go would have helped to rectify it a little. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Cadsuane PoV was inserted by Brandon Sanderson, right? So perhaps it’s just an unfortuane placement of the scene that wasn’t considered that means Cadsuane gets that moment of seeing Rand go instead of Moiraine. decgem@56, I really like the idea of Moiraine as a mother-figure to Rand.
mutantalbinocrocodile@147 – your analysis of underconfident Rand as he leaves helps me understand what I found to be a slightly odd note in the ending, with Rand wondering which, if any, would follow him and being rather incredulous. I thought, does he not get it by now?! I kind of expected him to be secure with it all by the ending – but actually, I now think it makes more sense this way. He’s not had the time to gain confidence and security and all of that – but now he’s free and he does.
I agree with those who say that the important people will find out later that Rand lives on, Tam at the very least. But the up-in-the-air and kind of lighthearted ending that we got for Rand was a necessary one – I love that image of him walking out into all these new possibilites, finally free. The end scene and the finally words were beautiful and really satisfying for me. (And that makes it far easier to overlook any niggling criticisms because of the quality of the ultimate close and the feeling I get when I think of the series as a whole.)
Re Mat and his luck – surely he won’t still have it? I never got the impression that he’d always been so very lucky and always saw it as a manifestation of the ta’veren twisting chance deal. So he gets to keep his memories and skills, but not his luck. I think I agree with what Randalator@97 says – that being ta’veren enhanced Mat’s ‘soul-attribute’ of being a bit lucky.
tamylink@70 – I’m intrigued by your Thomas Covenant comparison; I’d never have thought to draw a comparison between She Who Must Not Be Named and Nakomi! But I see your point – SWMNBN has just aligned herself with the bad force and Nakomi with the good. But actually, I think I see Nakomi as a force completely separate to the Dark One and the Creator – perhaps a force above them both, aligned with neither side. But then again, she does things to help the good side… If she only ever appeared in the cave at the end, I’d say she was some representation of the Creator, but that just doesn’t fit with her visit to Aviendha. Ah well. I’d love to believe spacechampion@83’s theory of Nakomi as Egwene reborn with anti-balefire backtracking power. Ultimately, I think we know too little about her for any very specific theory to work – I have to keep thinking of her as an odd, mysterious entity.
Isilel@36 – I’m with you that it would have been better if Alanna had died and Rand hadn’t been bothered. Even aside from emphasising his zen-ness, it would explain away the stupidity of letting Elayne and Aviendha go into battle if his going crazy over their deaths was a possibility. They never even think about it! Also, I must say, it never occurred to me that Rand would go Warder-crazy over any of their deaths. He always seemed kind of above that… So I was surprised to see Alanna in the cave (and I’m probably alone in that!). Also, I fully echo your sentiments re Cadsuane.
joeyesq@57 – I like your Brandon-as-a-slightly-unreliable-eyewitness idea. I like to think of it terms of it was the ending – but it was an ending. If the Wheel turns and the same things come round and round, then I like to think that Robert Jordan’s story was one turning, whilst Brandon Sanderson’s version was another turning. (To be clear, I have no real issues with his version; I just think it’s fitting.)
And finally, on to what matters most to me – Faile’s ending. I’ve thought about this a lot. She seems to spend a lot of time in the damsel-in-distress situation, but I’d never think of her in that way. With the whole Shaido situation, I thought it was great that she never waiting on rescue, she was always planning, and leading other people as well. And then she was rescued, but that was okay, because I had no doubt she could have rescued herself – and sometimes it’s okay to accept help anyway. So with her final rescue here, it’s similar – I’ve no doubt she’ll get right back on her feet. But surely it should be different now instead of just a rehash? We already know that Faile will fight to the end, accept rescue when necessary, and get right back up.
On first reading, I was mainly just happy that she survived after all. But below my joy, I had the niggling thought that she deserved something a bit more for her ending. And like others, it felt a bit disappointing after she had such a moving ‘death’ scene. Ultimately, I’m glad she survived and can therefore overlook my issues, but I do think it was have been far more fitting if, as others have suggested, she saved herself this time. I particularly like the idea that she should have just shown up in Merrilor.
Duffy12@163 – I disagree about that line of Perrin’s being out of place. Think how much their relationship and they themselves had changed between TPOD and TOM. Plus, isn’t that line from the Shanna’har scene, which is specially about them finally being open with each other. He admits to her what he’s worried about, and he’s worried about it because he doesn’t want to disappoint her. I think it makes total sense.
I do agree about Faile’s AMOL line though – a bit odd. But presumably she just didn’t believe he was truly bad? And I don’t remember, but had they already guessed/knew it was coercion by that point?
So overall, wonderful series, positives far outweigh negatives, satisfying ending. (Comparison: I love the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, but that ending did not satsify me, not a bit. As will always be the case with anything, I have niggling criticisms about Thomas Covenant and WoT, but WoT gave me an ending that makes me want to overlook the criticisms. Although I still prefer Thomas Covenant… so my comparison may have got away from me.) I’ll save my re-read thoughts till next week.
Sorry if anyone has already covered this, I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I want to ask something before we run out of steam. What is the significance of the Seanchen reaction when Mat walks back into their camp? Are they in awe of his achievements, know about the fact he is now dispensible or something else?
Samadai @167 — well done.
Forkroot @184 — I liked your story, especially the Min section. I cannot imagine Cadsuane ever admitting, let alone chaning the philosophy. of difference between leader and bully. Maybe this is my misunderstanding of Cadsuane’s character, or my personal dislike of her. I seemed to recall her thinking to herself that she was too old and too set in her ways to change.
Forkroot, I find it intersting that in your story, the Keeper did not come from the same Ajah as the Amyrlin Seat. Could this be the start of a new tradition. If this scenario plays out the way you wrote it, the last 3 Amrylins had a Keeper from a different Ajah as the Amrylin Seat ( Eliada had Alviarin; Egwene had Sheriam and Silviana; and now Cadsuane has Saerin).
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Sian17@189 – Some food for thought for me to chew on. I will drop this subject matter since I appear to be raising the ire of some of the posters here. Which I had not intended to do.
Thanks for the reply Sain17.
Samadai and Forkroot,
Great stuff! Looking forward to the sequel, Fork…
Though you’ve got to be inventive regarding the traitors to Tuon and Mat. I am not sure what can be regarded as traitorous behaviour there given that being plotted against is the natural state of the Seanchan ruler? I guess the answer is plotting incompetently…
Anyway, I digress. Like everyone else who read them, I really enjoyed them and hope for more, Sam and Fork. The longer the better but easy on the new characters ;)
@@@@@ 123Braid_TugI have had 3 greatgrandkids in the 5 years of the reread. Thanks Sam & Fork, I’ve missed your fanfic additions to the WoTworld.
I think the ending being kept exactly as RJ wrote it was appropriate but I’m sure he would have incorporated the maturing of his characters into the ending had he been the one to write the final book.
Many years of entertainment through the books and then the reread. Thanks Leigh, thanks RJ and thanks Brandon. There were times when this adventure was the only thing to assuage my homesickness when I was working in other countries.
Re: Nakomi – She’s a representative of the Jenn Aiel, somehow. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Re: Cadsuane – I find it moderately amusing (not to say mildly appalling) that people still seem to think of her as “classic old-school Aes Sedai” in her approach to the White Tower or anything else. The text is clear, from her first entrance, that she’s always been a rebel, never done the expected thing, and absolutely never ever saw a position of authority in the White Tower (Sitter, Ajah Head, or Amyrlin) as a “reward” – or even something she would remotely desire. She made it abundantly clear that she thought the whole hierarchy was stupid, though she certainly took pragmatic advantage of it when she chose – but even then, only over other Aes Sedai who were throwing their weight around. As I see it, the best things about Cadsuane as Amyrlin (which she most definitely did NOT see as a reward!) is that 1) she will divest herself of the position as soon as she’s done everything she thinks needs to happen to get the WT back on its feet; 2) she will honor the agreements made by her predecessor; 3) she really doesn’t want to die in ten years if she doesn’t have to, so she’ll do everything in her not-inconsiderable power to get rid of that mess with the Oaths, one way or another.
Re: Rand riding away – as many others have said, the best thing he could do for everyone right now is get out of the way – both as himself, and as the new tenant of Moridin’s old body. It’s not like it’s even possible for him to abandon The Three, but the whole world needs The Dragon to have died, and nobody needs to be asking questions about this other guy Rand brought back from the mountain. Best all around if he just… disappears quietly. He can come back to his personal relationships soon enough, and the rest don’t really need him.
Re: Moiraine – once again, I’m a voice of dissent… because as much as I liked Moiraine sometimes, she was far, far from perfect. The two great things she did were to find Rand and to sacrifice herself in accordance with the future she saw in the Rhuidean ter’angreal. (She also, inadvertently, found Egwene, so maybe you could call it three.) In between, she proved to Rand, Perrin, Mat, and Nynaeve that Aes Sedai were untrustworthy schemers; she tried multiple different forms of manipulation on Rand, mostly trying to steer him in the wrong directions; she tried to force the wrong things into looking like fulfillments of prophecy; and she put a massive guilt trip on Rand.
I’ll grant that after going to the trouble to retrieve her from the ‘Finn, it might have been nice to give her a more obviously critical role; personally, I’m okay with her role as the one to talk Rand & Egwene down from the ledge and being one of the two who form Rand’s team at Shayol Ghul. (I actually thought that part was kinda cool – that she finally learned to support the Dragon Reborn instead of trying to force/manipulate him to do things she thought might work.) Beyond that, I’m trying to figure out why anyone thinks she “deserved” to be Amyrlin – like she’d have thanked anyone for trying to stick her with the job any more than Cadsuane did.
Samadai & forkroot – Nice! Loved reading your stories. I don’t know if I’ll have a contribution or not, but I’ll try. Maybe a Cadsuane story… :D I’d still like to write that Trolloc-War story, but… it turned into a novelette-wannabee. And that was without being anywhere close to complete. *sigh*
AndrewHB@191
Thanks for the kind words. The bit with the Keeper was both a nod to Saerin (whom I like) and to the idea of a new tradition of the Keeper coming from a different ajah. I’m really pleased you caught and commented on that.
Re Cadsuane apologizing to Tam: As you (and FacultyGuy@185) noted it’s definitely a change in Cadsuane’s known character displayed in that interaction. The point, such as it was, was mostly about never being too old for character growth. I had to put some sort of surprise in there. Whether it worked or not is certainly debatable.
ValMar@193
Sorry, no sequel. I don’t normally do fan fiction, that was a bit a of a one-off. (I generally stick to perverting good songs into WOT-themed takeoffs. )
Samadai is our fan fiction master – but I responded to his challenge @168 and tried to fit in some of my thoughts on character’s futures while not seeming to be too “infodumpy”.
By the way, you made a pretty good point about Seanchan intrigue. It’s kind of tough to consider a situation where Fortuona (and Mat) wouldn’t be in mortal danger, but of course I could use Min’s visions (and her position as the Truth-Speaker) as a hook to tie into the previously planned Outriggers. (Plus I love Min and it gave me a chance to write her a little a bit!)
Wetlandernw@195
I cannot imagine anyone other than you doing Cadsuane’s story! I’d love to read it.
Fork: I certainly didn’t intend to snipe at your Cads characterization. I loved the speculative extrapolation and would love more.
Wet: one reason I liked the idea of Moraine as Amyrlin was the fact that she was one of the few characters who DID seem to learn from mistakes and show willingness to change strategy.
Also: would really like someone to fill in backstory on Cads. Clearly she is one-of-a-kind and not traditional AS. Somehow she got hold of the hair-net of ‘greal items and became one of the most powerful channelers, then used that to become bossy and autocratic even among her peers. There are hints of past adventures, mistakes, important influence/instruction from a peasant woman (I’m not remembering name or kdetails at present) and I do not doubt that RJ had a complete history for her in his head. But I (for one) never was clear about how she became a legend. I’d welcome enlightenment with details from anyone who knows background.
Faculty Guy@197
Oh I didn’t think you or AndrewHB were sniping at all – I thought you both brought up good points and were complimentary toward what I did (thanks!)
As for Cad’s backstory – I remember Wetlandernw doing a bit with Cadsuane’s possible story before (I hope my memory is not playing tricks on me.) Regardless, she has been such an eloquent defender/expositor of Cadsuane’s possible points of view and motivations based on a presumed background and experience, she just seems like the right person for the job.
Faculty Guy @197 – Cadsuane was the strongest channeler in the White Tower in a thousand years, before she ever obtained the paralis-net. She was stubborn and arrogant from her first arrival as a novice; she was also (contrary to popular belief) remarkably adaptable. She was far more considerate of others than most people acknowledge; for example, in her later years she refused to bond a Warder because, at her age, she felt it would be unfair to the man. Her experience with channeling men was greater than anyone else in the White Tower; she had brought more than 20 men to the Tower for gentling, without ever having to kill one, and every one of the men she brought lived far longer and better-adjusted lives than those captured by the Red Ajah.
Go to http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/c/cadsuane.html and go down past the Chronology and the Other References, there is a chunk of RJ’s notes on Cadsuane.
If you want to read my fanfic, which was written as a means of demonstrating that there could easily be a perfectly reasonable explanation for the way she treated Rand, try the reread thread for The Path of Daggers, Part 19, comment #276. Disclaimer @275.
Cads is a better Amyrlin after the Last Battle than Eg. Eg always wanted to become a perfect member of every society she encountered. That made her too much a traditional AS who thought the Tower should rule everybody. Cads also has contacts to non-AS channelers (including Asha’man), but judges people by personality, not their position in AS hierarchy. She never followed rules if they didn’t suit her and is more likely to change AS ways than Eg. She managed to run away from becoming Amyrlin several times in the past, but this time she was caught.
@183: If this blog was about uncritical love-fests for WoT and Brandon Sanderson, then someone forgot to tell Leigh. As I said, if you think AMoL was great and WoT flawless, good for you. But I, and all the others who have frustrations with aspects of the book and the series, have just as much right to express that here as others have to say what they thought was really good (and I’ve done plenty of that). Labelling it trolling is just petty.
@184: Nice! I had a ‘Tam comes back to the farm and meets Rand’ story written in my head, but hadn’t had time to write it. Just as well – yours was way more fulsome. Though I must say I’m not keen on the idea of Rand jumping back into action so soon – the guy needs a break. Let him be a tourist and dad for a while. Though how he’s going to juggle travel and being there for three wives and umpteen kids is a bit beyond me.
forkroot @@@@@ 196
Pity, but had to ask ;) Your ending did invite too big of a sequel, beyond the scope of a fanfic piece. Unless it was a trick and Min took Rand to a surprise party organised by Mat :D
Wetlander @@@@@ birgit,
I also think that Cadsuane will be very good as an Amyrlin for the post-LB years. She combines very firm (to the point of bullying) hand with flexibility in terms of personal relations, rules, and other people/organisations outside the WT.
I am not sure where this talk of Moiraine as Amyrlin began (looking at you Faculty Guy). Leigh and following posters were commenting on her not being there to see Rand depart and her lack of presence in AMOL in general. Maybe someone by accident or not conflated this with the Amyrlin seat thing because Cads’ Amyrlin job offer scene in the book was also in the same section.
I am sure Moiraine could be good at it. She has the ability. She is not without a fault, but if we can make a list of her past mistakes and handicaps, we can do so for Cadsuane too.
The big thing is that almost from the moment she became AS, Moiraine left the WT and spent most of the following 20 years away not only from it but also away from other AS.
Wetlandernw: Thanks. I’ll follow those leads. I’m certainly willing to be enlightened about Cadsuane, and it will be fun on my next re-read (via audio books on drives – likely starting late summer) to have a different “picture” of her as I go through the text. I’ll follow your leads as soon as I have time (which, unfortunately, will be delayed since I’m grading final exams this week, then workshops next week.)
My memory of her character is that it was not only Rand to whom she was abrasive and manipulative, but also Tam (for sure!), Nynaeve, almost every other Aes Sedai she encountered. Again: maybe my impression is colored by the fact that once she butted heads with Rand, I was prejudiced against her in her other encounters. I guess EVERY Aes Sedai had multiple schemes going, and perhaps hers were different only in that she had the power to see them through most of the time.
I would certainly look forward to any fanfic that fills in her backstory – from you or anyone else who is deeply immersed in WOT lore.
@189 Sian17
I think I agree with what Randalator@97 says – that being ta’veren enhanced Mat’s ‘soul-attribute’ of being a bit lucky.
Actually, the way Brandon answered it, I think we can still expect Mat to be not only “a bit” but eyebrow-raisingly lucky. Just not cheat code, game breaking, dude-you’re-completely-imba-what-is-even-the-hell kinda lucky.
Post TDR, I think he could have jumped blindly off a cliff and happened to have hit a goose feather warehouse that a gust of wind just seconds ago had ripped the roof off of.
Post AMOL he’d probably still hit the goose feather warehouse but shouldn’t exactly count on not punching a neat, Mat-sized hole into the roof.
Valmar@202: Did I originate the proposal that Moraine should have become Amyrlin? Not consciously! I assumed that this had already been raised, or maybe just that it was obvious.
Moraine was born nobility, with built-in leadership skills, which were enhanced by further training. She wasn’t all that far from the throne of Cairhein.
She was the closest friend of Siuan, who did become Amyrlin. The two of them hatched, then ran, the entire plot to find the Dragon Reborn and “guide” him to the LB. Surely they had thought about/discussed the post-LB world.
The fact that she was largely absent from the Tower for so long is, IMO, an advantage. She would be less committed to standard practice, and more willing to institute some/most of the changes that Egwene had begun. She had “seen the world” and thus might (I’m speculating here) be more open than other AS to embrace channeling women who were not AS (i.e., windfinders, wise ones, kin)
She was Egwene’s discoverer. Admittedly, most of Egwene’s training was from Siuan, but (again) Moraine and Siuan shared many goals and aspirations. I think Moraine would be inclined toward endorsing most of Egwene’s revisions of tradition.
Anyway: I did not realize I was broaching a new idea (if I in fact was). Moraine seems to me a “natural” Amyrlin.
Fork – excellent story and Leane FTW. Yes!
Faculty Guy @@@@@ 205
I agree and say so myself that Moiraine has the qualities to be a good Amyrlin. I am a big fan of hers, though never considered how worthy she would be as an Amyrlin. But Cadsuane is better suited for the work in the aftermath of the LB, IMO. Let her be the Amyrlin, it will serve her right… The life expectancy on the post for the last half-a-dozen holders isn’t promising…
RobM @@@@@ 206
So you’ve given up on Tam and Morgase? :p
Yes – but Leane was always an attractive second choice (as Fork well knows).
In response to the many comments re: Rand “abandoning” his loves and children….
I actually think that Rand’s ability to walk away at the end is an illustration of significant growth for him as a character. Because let’s face it: All three of those women are extraordinarily capable, independent and powerful individuals. They don’t need him to take care of them or to be there every day for them and the fact that he recognizes this is a pretty remarkable thing.
On top of that, all three of them have Traveling available to them. Sure, Min can’t do it herself but she’s got access to those who do. Since they can all feel his presence and identify at least the direction he’s in and roughly how close, it’s not like they can’t find him if they need to.
As far as the children go, as far as I can tell it’s not an issue for Min: she isn’t pregnant as far as I can recall. Aviendha’s children will be raised by the Aiel who aren’t exactly followers of a traditional family unit in the first place. Elayne’s children will be royalty and have an entire household staff dedicated to their raising. It’s highly unlikely, even if he’d chosen one of those women to spend the rest of his life with, that he’d be playing the typical father role in the first place.
I think Rand’s anonyminity is pretty much a requirement at this point: Without it, half the world would be expecting him to tell them what to do and the other half would be trying to get out of his control. Stepping down as Dragon Reborn is the only way to give him any sort of peace. It also actually protects the women he loves and their children if everyone believe he’s dead. No one will try to use their lives against him. So in my opinion, walking away is the best thing he can do for them. Which, again, I think it’s a remarkable sign of character growth to show that he recognizes that.
RobMRobM@206,208
Believe it or not, I briefly considered a sequence (in Tam’s flashback memories) where Tam remembered Morgase telling him something like:”I wonder if in one of those Portal worlds I married you instead?” (for you, for fun.) It didn’t really work though – it would have felt contrived. I wanted to keep the story as plausible and WOT-like as my amateur storytelling talent would allow.
I’m glad you appreciated the nod to option #2.
There’s a lot of “me” in this little FF. As someone who skews heavily to the older demographic within our reread group but doesn’t feel his age, I guess I naturally gravitated to the idea of Cadsuane being able to achieve character growth despite many years, and Tam not willing to “settle down and retire” just yet.
Forkroot, that was an excellent story, great job!
I agree about Cadsuane, she will make quick work of guiding the White Tower into the future. It actually will be easy for her, she hated the way the Tower has been run for centuries. Plus on the other side of the coin, most of the Sisters are not around to stop her. What was it, 2/3rds of them died? so that leaves a few sisters, and a whole bunch of Accepted/Novices that are open to change.
I also wrote a Cadsuane piece, in which she hears from the original hunters for the Dragon Reborn, that they are being killed off.
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/03/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-new-spring-part-12#176235 comment # 69
ValMar@202
Yup – it absolutely was intended to tie into the Outriggers, of course. My little homage to what will unfortunately never be written.
Thanks to Samadai, JeffS and Forkroot for their stories-and none of them contradict the others. It is great to imagine the future for this world.
I add my thanks to Leigh for the chance to further my enjoyment of the WOT and experience the Community of people also wishing to prolong their immersion in this alternate reality.
Braid_Tug I have had two grandchildren in the last two years of the reread.
ames @155 Not a registered contributor so I can only hope she sees this-I am also a follower from Australia. There maybe enough of us to have our own chapter now! Also felt the anticipation of waking on Wednesdays to view the post. I also had to endure the derision from my wife when I set the alarm to wake at some ungodly hour so that I could make the first post one time.
Samadai – That was just lovely. Brought tears to my eyes.
Forkroot – Bela! I almost spit out my tea when I read your bit about her.
Then the tears that Samadai started spilled out when Tam said “Rand.”
Oh, such an open ending.
It does bring to mind, that one of the hardest things, year 1 after the Last Battle will be feeding people. The crops were probably not tended the way that was needed. Year 1, a great year for starving to death after surviving the Last Battle. :-/ sorry to be a downer.
Kid Poll @@@@@ 123 to be showcased in Part 60.
I don’t think Famine will actually be an issue at all. I think the power that was unleased at Shayol Ghul( that made a wasteland into green growing fields) spread across the land making everything healthier.
@215: I like that thought.
Will think of it as truth.
I though Perrin’s portion of the Epilogue worked well – in fact better than much of it. It was loose end that didn’t feel forced to finish off.
Leigh, let me add my thanks to the chorus here. I am lurker here and have been since the beginning or the Re-read. I was also a lurker on Usenet, though that peaked for me for a couple summers in the mid 90s.
It is fun to see some familiar names from the Usent days pop in here, and wonder how many others just have different noms now.
BankstownBoy @213 – “I also had to endure the derision from my wife when I set the alarm to wake at some ungodly hour so that I could make the first post one time.”
I sure am glad I wasn’t actually drinking my coffee when I read that… :D
Oh, it’s ended (and I’m late).
Now that I have read Leigh’s comment, I heartily agree that it should have been Moiraine watching Rand leave. Maybe it could have been both of them, because Cadsuane watching fits also, IMO, because she was the one who tried to “guide” Rand in the second part of the series, while Moiraine kept her promise to help him, withouth forcing her will upon him, so it wouldn’t have been surpirsing that she’d let him go.
In earlier posts several people commented about Perrin not losing Faile, but I’m glad how it turned out. And since he did grieve for her, before he found her alive, since he was willing to do the right thing and let her die, I’m glad he was spared the anguish, she is his family after all and he’s lost is parents and siblings already.
Like macster @90 I do wonder about Rand having instructed Alivia to prepare money etc for him. It caught my eye the first time I read it and it still bothers me, but I guess there are more important question than this one.
Moved to Leigh’s final post – where it was supposed to be.
Awesome undertaking Leigh. Inspiring work and the perfect balm for the loss the end of RJ’s story brings.
I believe I know the riddle of Lan & Rand now, as told to me by a brilliant hero, disguised as a simple man. Egwene hurt my heart, and Amyrlyn broke it.
For those of you worried about Moiraine, I believe her job is not yet
done. If what I suspect is true, then Moiraine is going to blow all your little minds.
RJ you’re a freakin’ genius!!! You too Harriet!!!
Hi Leigh!
::wags tail::
Y’know, it’s been a while since I read the book, and one of the things reading this puppy, I forgot half the stuff that happened. Mostly because there was so much stuff happening at once, it was very difficult to process all of it.
A few thoughts:
First off, I stopped following and posting because my life has gotten complicated and the time I had to go and respectfully read all the previous posts before responding, or the time to follow the post on a Tuesday or whenever it dropped and be in on the ground floor, has long gone. Second, after barking at everything, I felt like it was all sounding the same, and if my barking sounded the same to me, it must have been like filler for everyone else, so it was better to be the wise elder statesman of the pack. Note: I said elder, not geezer, Freelancer ;)
Third, the books themselves. I have to be honest with folks, I like Brandon, the man is incredible. He shouldered a big task and did it well. Amazing even. For me, it did not feel right. I am on the farthest reaches of the galaxy so I cannot immerse myself in all things WoTish… unless it moves to Vegas… so I have to wonder, what is BS and what is RJ? The trail goes on but the scents have changed.
I was grateful that someone took up the daunting mantle and gave us closure. I plowed through was was written, and the pace was incredible. Pages flew by and I was left all tapped out and a wet sack of poo at the side of the road. I’m the kind of dog that when I’m done with something, I’m done. I don’t circle around and sniff for scent. This end left me sniffing.
I’d like to thank Leigh for her work at this, and for all the folks that put up with my spastic barking.
At least Lan kicked butt. And for folks that did the battle royal thing, and kept on about the power of throwing daggers, and the two pretty boys being all that, Uno made it… or at least as far as I can recall.
The rest is silence.
Woof™.
Leigh: Though I’m late to the party as usual, it doesn’t diminish my admiration and appreciation for the epic task you have nearly completed. I have laughed and cried and fussed and glowed over the material you have plowed through for years now, and your inimitable take on it and the wonderful “color” you can impart is a Talent. Thank you.
Well, I’ve finished the re-read, only about two months behind. I might have more to say about the epilogue and the entire series in a day or two, but for now I only have one question.
I recall discussion a couple of years back that in a Post-ToM, pre-AMoL tweet, BWS had stated that the “resonance” between the Dream Ring and the Acceptatron in TDR Ch22 was a hint of things to come in AMoL. Did anyone ever figure out what was meant by this? I don’t recall any ter’angreal resonating with each other in AMoL.
This is a bit late and all, but I just started catching up with the re-read of AMoL this past week, and I was actually just wondering: could Rand’s newfound reality altering abilities (without channeling) be at all related to a Light version of the True Power. Ie if the Dark One’s essence could be tapped into by his servants, then why couldn’t Rand be the very first person in known WoT history to have tapped into the Creator’s essence?
Hello. I haven’t been around in a loooong time for sure. And I only wanted to say one thing really. I haven’t read anything really since before the Con… Whenever that was… So I have no idea whether anyone called this one out besides myself. So here it goes.
The Rand /Moridin switcheroo? The movie Scanners. Scene? The end.
Soon as I read the switcheroo I was like, “Scannnnerrrrrs! Scanners! That was Scanners… Awesome!”
I was content and no ending could be any better. And really… I can’t think of too many endings of series or stand alone books that have ended as well. Not in a world sooo vast.
Peace and love everyone. Peace and love Leigh. Thank you sooooo much for everything you’ve done.
Z
Have to say I found the final book quite a let down. It’s difficult tpo know why but perhaps it was that so much of the story to date had to be worked out by the reader, Jordan wasn’t one for offering things on a plate – there was always lots to speculate on – new clues ro be pounced on.
The last book though seemed to be 80% battle scene which for me got to be a bit of a drag after a while.
Really though I think it was how very clunky and unJordan like the final scenes were in so many ways.
The Alivia helping him to die prophecy is laughably lame in how it came about. So much so that Rand has to basically say it in his head so we wouldn’t miss it – not Jordan at all.
Then we had the 3 girls going on about how important it is that everyone thinks Rand is dead – well how about acting in some way concerned while he was dying! Again this seems unnecessarily clunky as if this was so we would know that they know it wasn’t really him dying.
Moiraine’s role since her return is another bizarrly underwhelming saga of background references – if there was something that only she could do that helped rand win the last battle I must have missed it. Her not getting to note Rand departing was the final slap in the face. So much so that I speculate that Jordan had planned for Moiraine to die heroically in one of the last 3 books so she wasn’t actually around for him to use in the final scene…
While I’m delighted that the series was concluded and it was a huge undertaking for Sanderson I think his efforts in the preceding 2 books were far superior and much more in keeping with Jordan’s legacy than the final installment.
On a good note Egwene died. On a bad note Elayne and Faile didn’t.
While I tend to be motivated by criticism to post I have to say to Sanderson that the Olver scene blowing the horn being rescued by Noal was one of the best scenes in any of the books.
Thanks to everyone for adding a great dimension to a fantastic series of books – these will go down as literary masterpieces I think.
@227 Divil The Bother
Moiraine pulling a heroic sacrifice might have been an important enough plot point to get at least a passing mention by RJ, don’t you think?
That’s something Brandon would never have skipped. So if it didn’t happen in the final book, it didn’t happen in RJ’s vision
Personally, I like to think that in the Mat-central spinoffs that will unfortunately never be written, Moghedien manages to escape from her sul’dam and, through her usual sneaky habits, undermining and possibly even staging a coup within the Seanchan Empire. Leaving, of course, our favorite staff wielding, hat wearing hero to take her down.
It’s an anime complaint, I know, but it does bug me that Mat is the only Ta’veren not to take down one of the Forsaken. As awesome as Lan’s battle was, part of me still wishes it was Mat. So I would love it if it were Mat to finally put an end to the last Forsaken. I have this great image of a scene with Mat, trying to fight without harming a squad of compulsed Deathwatch guards, all while he’s trying to get to a crazed Moghedien…
Oh well. In my mind, at least, Matrim Cauthon is the Spider Slayer.
@229: I have to disagree. I loved that Mat didn’t engage Demandred directly.
It was subtle callback to TFoH, when Mat battled Couladin. A general doesn’t fight duels on the battlefield. Mat has grown up since then. Demandred apparently never got the memo. If he had been more interested in actually commanding his forces rather than trying to draw Lews Therin into a duel, they might have carried the day.
It shows Mat’s maturity and growth. Its also the ONLY reason the Light-siders didn’t all perish in that battle. If Mat had gone up against Demandred, he would have lost, because he would not have been willing to “Sheathe the Sword.” Lan was. And he had been ready since Day One of the series.
I know this is nit-picky; but, does Perrin’s not being ta’vern necessarily mean Mat and Rand aren’t either? I’ve been thinking about Mat in particular and it seems that with having to change the Seanchan Empire, he’d need to be ta’vern still. Rand, maybe, because the world still needs food desperately and the land is tied to the Dragon, so maybe he is still the dragon even though the heavy lifting is done…
(Again, years after the article is written. Again, sorry)
The bit with the pipe, isn’t that just a callback to the beliefs of the Aiel and the people who killed themselves on Tremalkin, and maybe the Ogier themselves? This is just a dream. One from which we must one day wake. Some even say that Rand is the dreamer. That last was from way back in Bk6 too, I think?
Well now he is in some way or other. He was supposed to break the world, yes? I’m thinking that at the end of the Third Age, the world is remade regardless by the Dragon. Either (s)he takes one of the Dark One’s offers, or (s)he does what Rand did. Remake it with the Dark One sealed away. Which makes him the Creator who sealed away the Dark One at the beginning of creation. Except, of course, there are no beginnings to the Wheel of Time.
I imagine the sequel trilogy would have focused on Mat going to bring order to Seandar. Probably Olver failing to throw away the Horn, Aviendha trying to prevent her vision, and hopefully Bode just because. I’m both sad and satisfied we’re not getting it. There are no endings to the Wheel of Time either, and loose ends mean just that.
Poking my head back in years later…Samadai, Forkroot, those fanfics were brilliant. Loved them both, so very emotional. Great attention to detail too. I also loved Grady’s appearance in Samadai’s fic, and that it was Perrin Rand came back to (he was always my favorite of the Superboys). The Tam/Leane romance was a wonderful surprise, and as for Min’s appearance–not only was she totally in character, her showing up to drag Rand off to save Mat and Tuon totally made me think of Doc Brown with Marty at the end of the first Back to the Future. Wonderful! And the Bela bit… *weeps*
@224 willmcd: I’m not sure, but didn’t Aviendha have the dream ring (or one of the copies) with her when she left Caemlyn, and took it with her to Rhuidean? If so, a resonance could explain why the pillars ended up showing her the future.
@225 tenkuu: I actually thought of that myself, and I think others had considered there should be a Lightside version of the True Power, just not in specific relation to what Rand can do here. (This was back when people were trying to figure out how he’d seal the Bore without some power becoming tainted again, and what the whole “three shall be one” was about.)
@229 instantdeath: While I agree with anthonypero that Mat did the right thing as a general in not facing Demandred directly, I have to say your description of that scene facing down Moghedien is pretty badass and sent a few thrills up my spine.
@233 thumb: Interesting point about Rand’s Creator role.
Hi Leigh!
::wags tail::
Been casting around… And I caught a familiar scent, it was me. Dang it. I’m no quitter.
Inn response to CireNaes, AP, and others:
In a nutshell, I had kids- technically it was my wife, but she made me witness the horror and take part. I recall many an old movie and cartoon where the dad waits outside while stuff goes on behind a curtain. We didn’t get to see the great and powerful Oz.
Lemme say that birth was something but the raising- folks can tell a seasoned parent by the 1000 yard stare they get.
There are two so far, the wife is hard to convince. Before the Daughter came along there was a miscarriage that was, well, it was soul crushing, but the Wheel still turns. The Daughter was a Christmas baby-gah- and we figured “why stop there?” so Boy Wonder came along.
These blessed events also coincided with the rapid drop off in posts here. Kids, plus the ever present clunky website that Tordot never fixes lead me to restructure priorities.
But I said I will always be around.
Rand. Folks can say what they want, but I kinda liked that he finally gets to take his cruise. What honked me was that his harem is still around.
One of my favourite movies, heck, one of the greatest movies ever is “The Searchers”. JW goes through hell and high water to bring his… neice back home. Drops everything else and goes hunting for IRRC something like 7 years. Finds Debbie(neice) brings her home and in a very iconic scene, walks off into the sunset by himself.
That’s what I wanted for Rand. Doing what he did changed him, scarred him, left a mark. Heck, when I go to work, I need some time to decompress so I can interact peacefully with my family. Rand just got seriously messed up. The emotional scars. I know he went through his Zen Rand period but dood has baggage. Let him be alone for a while. Nothing wrong with that.
Anyways… Oh look…
http://reluctantentertainer.com/chicken-white-bean-mozzarella-dip/
Woof™.
thanks from the future! Enjoyed the re-read immensely!
Am I the only one who noticed that, of all the missed reunions—on screen at least—we never had one of Mat and his father? I think we even saw Mat and Tam speaking during the Last Battle, so presumably Abell was nearby? But it never occurred to Mat to ask about him (again, at least on screen). There was one point where Abell remarks on Mat dodging harm after a skirmish, but that’s the closest either of them seems to come to considering the other. It would have added to Mat’s internal tension during the battle when it came to deploying the Two Rivers forces knowing it would put his own father in danger. I know there was so much that had to be left out to condense the book, but it was still a great missed opportunity (as well as reunion).
I know I’m coming to this rather late, but there are things I feel like I must share and this is a good discussion.
Before that, I got sidetracked by the Pipe and Nakomi, so want to share my opinion on that…
I thought Nakomi was Jenn Aiel at first viewing. A Jenn channeler would make sense, someone who has lived several hundred years and actually remembers the history of the Aiel as it was passed down by the Jenn.
As for the Pipe, I feel like this was touched on in the fight with the Dark One. Rand did not weave the prison with Air, Fire, Water, Earth, Spirit, etc., he wove with the essences, with life itself. So now he has been awakened to seeing the world in a different way, to being able to control the essence of life. It would make sense that wouldn’t be channeled in the same way.
Now onto my thoughts…
I understand that BS kept RJs work almost entirely intact for the epilogue and…it therefore lacked emotion to me. The last three books were so full of vibrancy and human emotion, something that BS seems much better able to write. I would have loved to have seen a bit more of the various characters.
I feel like the whole point of why Rand’s visions of a pure world failed in front of the Dark One was because of the lack of raw human emotion, good or bad. A world untouched by the Dark One does not need to mean a world untouched by any kind of suffering. And so Rand sitting up alive at the end all giddy and happy and riding off into the sunset without a thought for Egwene, as an example, did not sit well.
On top of that, it was a bit too neat. No pair was split up except Rhuarc. The only major character to die was Egwene, and Gawyn also died. Perrin and Faile survive, Mat and Tuon, Moriaine and Thom, Rand and the three, Lan and Nynaeve, Loial and Erin…
Everyone who died, died in pairs – Egwene and Gawyn, Byrne and Suian, the Basheres.
I also would have liked to see – and it would have only taken one paragraph – Pevara wedding Androl and committing to change what the Red Ajah stands for. This would have been a big message about love over hate, about care over rejection.
An ending after a climactic battle like the last battle is always going to be tough. It was made tougher by Egwene’s death being the real emotional trigger point, and all those pages after that could not rescale those heights.
“Don’t I get to be a hero too?’ Rand feels he had contact with Eggy’s soul. She scolded him. She had the right to be a hero. It was her choice. It was a very important epiphany for Rand. He also knows with absolute certainty that Egwene isn’t lost. She’s not presently on the Wheel but she will be back.
I like to think that everybody who died in the service of the Light got a really good rebirth. Lovers, like Gawyn and Egwene, are born in close propinquity, find each other early and enjoy long lives together.
That does happen. Brigitte remembers sharing such a life with Gaidal Cain. The most boring life she’s ever had, though she enjoyed it at the time.
“Don’t I get to be a hero too?’ Rand feels he had contact with Eggy’s soul. She scolded him. She had the right to be a hero. It was her choice. It was a very important epiphany for Rand. He also knows with absolute certainty that Egwene isn’t lost. She’s not presently on the Wheel but she will be back.
I like to think that everybody who died in the service of the Light got a really good rebirth. Lovers, like Gawyn and Egwene, are born in close propinquity, find each other early and enjoy long lives together.
That does happen. Brigitte remembers sharing such a life with Gaidal Cain. The most boring life she’s ever had, though she enjoyed it at the time.